Hello and thanks for joining us for another episode of MidAmerican Gardener.

I'm your host, Tinisha Spain, and joining me in the studio this week are two of our pals here to talk about all things gardening in the dead of winter, right before we get started, let's have them introduce themselves and tell you a little bit about them, and then off we go.

Kay, we'll start with you.

Well, I'm a Champaign Garden Master Gardener, and my areas are vegetables and herbs.

Vegetables, and in summertime, they can find you out at Allerton, right, in the herb garden there.

Yes, they can very nice, very nice.

Okay, Chuck, all right.

I'm Chuck Voigt.

I am not so recently retired from crop Sciences here at the University of Illinois, my areas were also vegetables and herbs.

And pretty early on, I met I met Kay out at an herb meeting in Monticello.

So small world, isn't it, and here we are.

The rest is history.

Okay, all right, Chuck, we're going to start with you.

So we were talking about seeds.

You're starting to see the displays come out in stores, but you want to talk a little bit about seeds that we might have on hand at home.

So, right?

I think that's, that's a question that I used to get was, you know, can I use what I what's left over from last year or or the great ideas I had last year that I didn't, I didn't get accomplished, or like that?

Well, the answer is, for a lot of things, you can use them the second year.

It makes some difference how you handle them.

If, when you're not taking them out to the garden to do whatever you're going to do, at least put them in the refrigerator, because they're living, breathing entities and and the longer they sit in in room temperature or or, heaven forbid, in the backseat of your car when it's sitting in the parking lot.

And it would, you know you don't want to leave your dog there, your or your kids there, well, don't leave your seeds there either.

So it depends how you handle them, but if you treat them like a perishable commodity and put them in the refrigerator when you're not using them.

I think you can get by with most things.

Exceptions might be onion family things don't do particularly well after the first year, so you might want to make an effort to plant those the year that you buy them.

Some lettuces, I think are a little a little bit that way interesting.

I was tempted to say, the larger the seed, the more energy it has, and it might last longer.

But celosia, are you familiar with like the pompous bloom and some of those?

I've been amazed at how well those, they're pretty tiny, little, little black seeds and and I've had luck with those several years down, down the way.

So if there's any doubt, you can you can use a wet paper towel and try like 10 seeds and see where you are.

If you know, if five or more germinate, you're probably okay to try them.

If it's less than that, you're probably going to be disappointed, because you won't be able to judge how to how to get a proper stand.

But is there anything, even if you do take the absolute best care of them, have them in the refrigerator and that kind of thing, do they slowly degrade over time?

Is that a thing?

Well, metabolism is going on in them, even if you slow it down in a cooler or in a freezer.

And it just depends.

I had tomato seeds that had been in the cooler from, I think, 1997 until in the 2010s and I brought some of those out, and was amazed that I actually got some of them to germinate.

And so, you know.

And if you go to like seed savers, they have super cool storage where they vacuum, pack up, put them in icy storage, and they can, they can plan on them lasting 10 years.

You know, it's Gotcha.

It just all, it all depends on how much work you're willing to do.

I didn't do as good a job with with these as I should have last year.

But yeah, we're probably going to try some of them anyway.

If they're things that can be transplanted, you can plant them in a in a flat or something, and.

And if they if they fail there, then it's not a lot of space.

No, yeah, that is good to know, though, because we've all got seeds that well, after you make the first mistake of planting, you know, 10 cantaloupe, then you just do two the next year, and you've got several left in the pack.

So that's good to know, that you can at least give them a shot and and even the the fine hybrid Musk melons, you know, you might be paying six or $7 for 10 seeds, yes, and.

And if you can keep those in a cooler and use them for two or three years, it kind of spreads that.

That cost out.

The cost of hand pollinators must have gone through the roof, because there's been the last couple of years, there's been a real jump up in in, you know, like triploid watermelon seeds and some of those things that have to there's a lot of hands on involved in making those happen.

Gotcha, I didn't, you know.

I didn't realize that, but good to know.

And there are resources in different communities.

I know in Vermillion County, they have a great big seed exchange at the library that people will bring seeds in that they've saved and drop off there.

So there are ways to hopefully, kind of bring that cost back down.

But you're right well, and also, if you maintain heirloom tomatoes or other things you want to know that you don't have to.

You know positively, have to grow them every single year.

When I had a potato collection that was, that was kind of the the drudgery part of it, because, well, first of all, because I went crazy and had 150 varieties, that's quite a collection.

And second of all, unless you're set up to do tissue culture or something where you can hold them, you have to grow the vegetatively propagated things every year.

And so that that became quite a burden.

It's a beast to kind of continue to feed.

It is it?

Is your curiosity turns into a lot of back breaking labor.

We'll have to get into that story on another show, the year of the potato, many years.

But okay, all right, Kay, we are to you.

And so as we're talking about seeds and kind of moving in that direction, you brought a couple of your gadgets.

I do start a lot of my own seeds, and I start them in the house, in flats.

So I have, this is a grow light, and it actually hangs.

I have a shelf unit, metal one that's got pretty wide.

So you just hang this, and it's, especially, you can see the difference, oh yeah, oh yeah.

So it's, it's good that it's adjustable.

So you can, I was just going to ask about that, as they're growing.

You can, yeah, see you just slide that in, uh huh.

Grow lights have changed the game.

Honestly, they have made it so easy for you to be able to start seeds and not have them be so leggy and lanky in the house.

Yeah.

Well, that, that was my line in class, was you can pay more for for the the grow grow light tubes, the pink ones that that they used to have, and they were fluorescent, they're actually slightly less efficient at growing plants than just a regular, Cool White was.

But with these LEDs that that really, as you said, has changed the game.

Oh yeah, and they're so inexpensive, you know, like, I remember when I was first getting into them, getting a light was, I mean, they were pretty pricey, and now you can get them for 510, bucks.

And it's just really, remember how much easy that would probably worth it.

And then this is, I eat that, so I put the tray on top of this, and then it heats up and keeps the seeds warm.

I have two of those, and I always find myself having to shuffle between who gets the warm start and who gets a cold bottom.

So while we've got both of you here, can we talk about who needs a warm bottom and who is okay having just a regular temperature like I know, do tomatoes need a warm tray?

Let's talk through some of that.

I'd say tomatoes and peppers basically warm season crops are going to need it more than cool season crops.

Basil, get into the herbs.

They probably wouldn't be starting it in a in a flat but spinach, for instance, can germinate at pretty low temperature, where tomatoes, wooden peppers are another step of.

Of that.

In fact, needing warmth.

Eggplants are up with peppers.

But basically, the warmer it would like to grow in the garden, the more it needs the bottom heat to get going.

Or if you're taking cuttings of something, you know, in a different situation, cuttings always benefit from a little bottom heat as well.

So, okay, that's interesting.

It's nice that it's, it's the size of a 1020, flat, yes, yeah, it is.

I got two or three of these.

Now, how long do you leave them on there?

Do you like once they Well, until they germinate and until you know they're ready to be potted so you leave them on the heat mat after germination and let them sit on that until you pot them up.

Okay, okay, it's not, I mean, it's not that hot, it's not hot.

It's warm.

No, I was just, I didn't know if it needed that warmth beyond germination, or just in that, that early first couple of weeks.

No, I usually leave it okay.

It might be, might be a shock to them, if you took it away when they were just, just the kind of leading showing, and that's when they're most susceptible to things like damping off anyway, so if they suddenly got a chill, it might improve.

Might not be such a good thing.

And the temptation, of course, would be okay, you're up.

Yes, I'm moving on to the next one here, because, because I got, I got 40 things I want to get done here in the next two weeks.

Yes, where my mind was going?

How long do you need this mat so I can get somebody else on it?

Excellent, excellent.

And, you know, they don't take a lot of energy either.

Those are the low wattage.

And I really do help a lot.

I have a timer.

Yes, that's in the you can turn it off lower, or whatever Gotcha.

Okay, we love gadgets that make the job a little bit easier, a little bit easier.

I don't know if it's ever going to happen, but I would love to have one of those led stands where there's like three or four levels.

Yes, oh my gosh.

I mean that that's kind of plant starter.

We don't have room for things like one of the reasons why I don't have one of those shelf in the dining room that's all devoted to plants, yep, same.

And this is that type of time of year where I'm snatching stuff out of the trash, and don't throw that away.

I need that all hands on eggs.

Yeah, that's the trash.

Oh no, there's a lot of things.

It's a useful garden that is all right.

So every year about this time, we post Chuck's planting guide for winter sowing, and this thing has taken on a life of its own.

I mean, hundreds of people just ask for it, love it, react to it, interact with the post.

So this has turned out.

I mean, this is going to be an annual staple of the show.

So here we are, end of January, early February.

Talk us through this first section and what we should be doing.

And, yeah, well, at this point you probably should have sown those things in that first group, although you could, you could probably lead it into February, if you needed to.

But the onion kinds of things, the shallot kind of things, leeks, chives, and then slow things with small seeds, like celery, celeriac, parsley, you need to get them going.

They're, they're cool season crops, so that they can, some years, they can go out late in March.

Any year, they can go out in April.

So you want to get them going, because the they they don't necessarily germinate as fast as some other things.

They don't develop necessarily as fast as some other things.

So those things that you want to have in the garden by early to mid April, you should have going by mid to mid January, maybe to mid February, although that might some years that might be pushing it a little late, and then go from there.

Okay.

Now, are we doing these in, you know, the little cell, the little four pack cells, or more winter?

So type, not.

I'm not much of a winner.

So I'm a stardom that if you're super tight on space, you can, you can start some of them in a seed flat, and then after they're up and growing and you're two or three weeks down the down the continuum.

Yeah, then you can put them into a cell pack, because the cell pack is going to take each one is going to take that much space, and we're going to want more than one.

So if you're really tight for space, you could put get some small seedling flats, start them in that and then get them out of there and use a dibble.

And I mean, we've got nothing but time.

You know what I mean?

Like, as cold as it is, we've got time.

We've got these gardening urges, and the actual garden is frozen, buried snow.

So having something to get, a little dirt under your fingernails is a good thing at this time.

Oh yeah, for the soul it is.

I could just see myself out there just plucking up a little, you know, planting, and it just gives us something to do, almost as good as a blood pressure pill, almost, almost.

So as we're moving into February and we're talking, let's see the next batch.

Here is the rosemary and lavender.

And these are, you know, I always have the hardest time growing lavender.

It's kind of fickle.

Lavender is kind of tough.

It's not an easy, yeah, yeah.

Rosemary is kind of tricky, too.

I don't think I've grown rosemary.

It's Rosemary is much easier in the garden, yeah, but part of that is because you don't, you don't even expect overwinter it.

So it, you grow it as an annual, and it's yes, there's no problem.

It's when you try to bring it inside that it becomes a big problem.

Yeah, because it dies immediately.

It wants it wants to be cool.

It wants to have a not so dry atmosphere.

And we bring it into forced air heating, and then, and most people can kill it by Thanksgiving.

I really, a really good gardener.

Might keep it alive until Christmas.

Oh my gosh.

Probably the best way is like, I've heard you talking to to Ella and and Karen about putting things in a cool garage.

Yes, that doesn't, doesn't get cold enough to actually kill it, and then just kind of kind of force it into dormancy and kind of get it through the winter that way.

I think I've had better success over winter, and rosemary that way.

Then you bring it into a room that's comfortable for you and me, and it's gonna it's like a slow death or not so slow death.

I did not know Rosemary was a difficult the seeds of rosemary and lavender are, are fairly slow to germinate.

They're not they're not huge, so you get a fairly tiny seedling, it takes a long time for it to develop, and although they have some cold tolerance, once they're established, you wouldn't want to be putting them out until probably may here in the Midwest.

So that's why we we didn't start them in January, and we are doing them kind of in mid February.

Gotcha.

Now, I want to try to grow rosemary, just to see if I can do it.

Of course, it could fall into the African Violet category of the plant that I just kill every time.

Well, the other thing to remember with rosemary is it's really better to start with a cutting of a known variety, because the oil chemistry varies from seedling to seedling, so that one might be high in camphor and not really that pleasant to eat.

And so if you get you get a good one.

My friend in Minnesota had one called Shady Acres that was just fantastic.

And hopefully that's somebody still propagating that out there somewhere, because she closed her business, but, but taste it before you.

That's a very before you do it.

And one from a cutting is going to be better.

And like I say, if you grow it as an annual, you get a couple of rooted cuttings in late spring, put them in the garden, harvest them like crazy through the summer, and then either you could take a cutting, but if you don't have a cool greenhouse, probably it's not going to be, yeah, not going To be very successful.

Okay, all right, and then we've got about 10 minutes left, so we both brought in our catalogs, and as we're looking through them, so I was telling them before the show, I got a catalog, a seed catalog, that wasn't for our growing zone.

And so I'm flipping through at these beautiful.

Are vibrant plants and flowers that won't grow here.

So excuse me.

So making sure that you're looking for the correct growing zone and what will be successful here is got to be important as you're thumbing through these catalogs, definitely tell me a little bit more about what we need to look for in zone six when we're looking at buying seeds or buying flowers from these catalogs, read the, you know, the description of the seed, and they usually have a lot of information that sounds too easy.

Reading the seed packet sounds way too easy.

Well, not necessarily the packet, but the catalog.

Oh, got you like the description of especially seed savers, the days to harvest, I think is pretty important, because there are, there are some things that have a longer days to harvest than we have frost free days here, some of the some of the larger peanuts come to mind that we really don't have necessarily a long enough season to grow peanuts to full maturity.

That's a good point.

So looking at the mature date or the blooming date, any other tips for folks who are buying seeds just out of a catalog.

If you look at the at the entire catalog, you can tell that there are some that the one that you have there, it's a company that's based in Maine, but they're doing their trials and their selections based on national marketing and a lot of the annual vegetable crops, particularly, it's not going to make a terrific amount of difference, as long as you have enough enough degree days to mature the crop.

But I guess you can, you can look at where they're located, but in some instances, it's not going to make a huge difference.

And other ones, like the southern one that you were looking at, yes, it might make more difference.

Now, what is your fave?

Which one do you?

Which one do you just you can't wait to get your hands on it every year.

Well, going back to my potato collecting days, it's hard to beat the seed savers winter yearbook, because there's just hundreds and hundreds of varieties of things, even more varieties of potatoes than I ever, oh my gosh, more than 150 but isn't that some of that you know, comes from different people.

Like, it's a network of people who are, who might be, who might be, maintaining one, one being, or 20 tomatoes.

And they just, they just offer them through the exchange and the the conglomerate of that is that you get something like this, that, yes, more enlightened people search online, and I don't know there's still something about that analog, I was a life subscriber when they really needed the money, and more than 40 years ago.

And and you've submitted seeds to this, right?

I have, I haven't recently in the in, in the current postage expense system.

I haven't done it lately, and I would imagine it's gotten considerably more expensive to do the exchanges, just because they used to treat a padded envelope like a letter, and now they treat it like a package, and their package rates are kind of astronomical, So I probably should go in and do some research and and find out how they're doing that now, because, you know, I used to just go to the hardware store and get lots of little, little cardboard boxes that they they got whatever and and then I would put potatoes in those and ship them wherever they needed to go.

But packages now, it might be 10, $12 to send a few ounces of potatoes somewhere.

Now, so interesting.

Yeah, have you submitted anything to seed savers?

Not recently.

I did.

For years, I didn't know that.

I know you participated with the broom corn, red and black Broom Corn is still in here.

For some reason they got it separated.

So one is listed as a sorghum and one is listed as, I don't know, somehow the red and the black got shifted into two slightly different categories, which I don't understand, because they're just they're just cultivars.

That are different, but I don't have this years this book, but I've got this, yeah, yes.

Well, they and then they, after years of resisting, they went to having an actual catalog, because this group popularized heirloom crops, and then other people came into the marketplace and were making money hand over fist.

And so it finally dawned on seed savers that, you know, we're missing we're missing out.

Missing a great way to support our mission.

And so they they, each year, they go through their collections and and grow out enough to offer a pretty wide array of things, and they change it from year to year so that you can, you can, you can stay crazy interested in something that you see that's new.

There's a couple of lima beans in here that that might make my knuckles itch.

All right.

Well, that is it.

That is the show.

It goes so fast.

Thank you guys, so much for coming in and sharing your time and talents with us, and thank you so much for watching.

If you've got questions, you can send them in to us at yourgarden@gmail.com or just look for us on social search for MidAmerican Gardener and send your questions in there, and we will See you next time.

Thanks for watching.

Good night.