(upbeat electronic music) - And welcome back to "Family Health Matters."

I'm Shelley Irwin.

With me today, Sabrina Minarik, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Advisor for the Area Agency on Aging of Western Michigan.

Kathey Batey from Divorce Support Anonymous, and Crystal, Dr.

Crystal Frazee, Executive Leadership Coaching Consultant for Crystal Frazee Development, say that over and over again, (guests chuckling) we'll get to know you.

Ladies, glad that you are here, and appreciate you talking about this important subject.

And that's where I'll start.

Sabrina, talk a bit about how you are involved with wisdom and aging!

- Yeah, absolutely.

So, as my role of diversity, equity, and inclusion advisor at the Area Agency and Aging of Western Michigan, we really kinda wanted to explore ageism, that's something that's not talked about highly within the DEI realm.

And wanted to get some stories from different people, so we had some interviews talking about what was healthy aging to them, how do they age, how do they wanna age, are there stigmas, have they experienced ageism?

So, it's been very, very eye-opening.

And then, also wanted to kind of shout out to the public, we should be aware of this, and how to prevent ageism, and what can we do on our own time, and also as a community to support those who want to age healthily, and be respected as an individual.

- Yes.

And your audience through the agency is 60 and above?

- [Sabrina] Correct.

- Yes, thank you.

Let's talk to you, Dr.

Crystal Frazee, about how you're spending your days.

- How I'm spending my days.

Well, I have the pleasure of supporting executive women and business owners to find fulfillment and sustainability within their careers, and helping organizations to find obstacles, and remove them, so that women can thrive at all levels of leadership within their companies.

- And your angle, you're gonna take us to that natural part of aging for women when it comes to menopause!

- Yeah!

I think that there's this really interesting intersection that can be a part of this conversation, which is what challenges women face in the workplace.

Typically, as women are advancing in their careers, they're having more professional stress, they're also having more personal stress, caring for aging parents, for example.

And at the same time, physiologically, they're going through changes in their body that don't leave them as resilient biologically to the stress that they're facing.

And I think there's some really important things that we can share with our community about that, so that women can get the simple and effective strategies they need to manage the stress and show up so that their performance is strong, and that they can be fulfilled as they age.

- Great, we'll get into the weeds.

Kathey, many titles.

Domestic mediator, divorce coach, certified mental health coach.

Sometimes life gives us some changes with aging, yes?

- It certainly does.

And I work primarily with those who are going through the life change of divorce, although I work with others as well, to guide them through a drastic change perhaps they weren't planning on.

And how do we face that?

How do we get curious about our future and what we want, finding ourselves again, finding who it is that we want to be with the remainder of our time from that drastic change.

- Yes.

And of course your niche is divorce, but obviously changes happen with a loss of a spouse, a breakup of a long-term relationship, you can address that as well, - Right, empty nest.

All of a loss of the job.

There are many areas in which we face change!

And so, the goal is how do we handle our emotions primarily?

Because there are a lot of feelings, a lot of core values that come to play or that we need to research and find again.

And so, it's a time that's very chaotic, but it's also a time that's very powerful, that we can make the changes that we want to make in our life!

- Hmm.

We'll stay with you.

A definition I'd like to hear from us all, what is healthy aging?

- Mm-hmm.

That's a great question, and a profound one.

Healthy aging is seeing where we are in life, being realistic about where we are physically, but also still continuing to dream.

Continuing to have a plan of where we want to go, how do we wanna make our life purposeful?

And realizing although that season has passed, there's a new season, and this new season can be as exciting as the days of our youth.

We just have to plan it and we have to be proactive in it.

- I feel like if we look historically, our workspaces, and much of our culture is designed by men for men, and that it's so important as we talk about women moving through, especially these transitions that you're talking about in their lives, that they're coming back and asking the important question of what do I want?

What do I really want?

If we peel away all the expectations from everywhere else, all the double binds and ways that it doesn't matter how you show up, you're not getting an a plus necessarily from a social perspective.

All that matters is really what we as individuals want, and that's for everyone, regardless of gender.

But really important for women to be able to weed through that sort of inner narrative of expectations, to make sure their choices are going to leave them fulfilled as they age- - That's so huge, the expectations part, to work through that, and to get to the core of what do I want, what direction do I want my life to go in.

- Hmm.

That can even be changed at 90, I bet.

- Yeah!

- Absolutely.

- Sabrina, add to this.

- Yeah, absolutely.

So again, healthy aging, I think a lot of people are thinking about their physical health, and that's just not true.

We all start out on different levels when we're born with health-wise and abilities, and as they're growing healthy aging, physical health impacts that, but also mental health.

How are we mentally, as Kathey stated, do we want, do we have dreams and goals, and are we going out into the community to get that?

So, just being able to be fulfilled within and still have things to look forward to in the future.

- Staying with you, Sabrina, let's look at what's happening under your leadership with the agency and ageism, what's ageism?

- So, ageism is discrimination based on one's age.

And we know that this isn't only an older adult issue, it affects people younger as well, especially in the workforce, and outside in the community.

So, a lot of times, you'll hear "You can't teach an old dog new tricks," and that is referring to someone who's like, well, we don't wanna spend training money on this person because they're close to retirement!

And why would we do that?

They can't learn this technology.

And that's just not the case.

Even with just going out and wanting to do different classes or art, or whatever it may be.

Like, there's not an age where your life is over and you have to stop doing things that you might've once loved.

You might have to adapt.

And again, that's what I've learned from those individuals that we've interviewed.

There are adaptations that you have to make, but it's not an end.

So, just working to combat ageism, and again, find the value and where everyone can come in to be valuable to your organization, to the community, to your household.

- And what is the initiative that the agency's doing?

What have you been doing?

- So, we're really just trying to highlight what ageism, how ageism impacts older adults with the social stigma, the decreased physical health benefits, decreased mental health, also, it causes social isolation a lot.

So again, social isolation is a huge issue already that seniors face.

And when they have individuals saying, "You can't do that, you're too old!"

You're not capable to do that, it just even brings them down even more and isolates 'em from the community.

So again, their physical, their mental health is going to be impacted negatively.

So, we interviewed five different individuals to talk about their story, and to reframe aging, and show, again, your life isn't ending.

They have so many things to look forward to, they wanna be a part of the community.

Intergenerational contact is extremely important with that as well.

And getting our services at the Area Agency on Aging, and all of our millage and OAA partners to also look at that impact and say, "Can we bring in intergenerational contact at senior centers?"

What other activities can we do to not only get people into our center, but also have them integrated into the community?

- Standby, we'll ask you for a story, Kathey, follow up.

- I want to, I brought this quote along because I thought it was just so important, and I use it in my support groups, and I use it with those folks especially who are older, going through divorce.

It's from the US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.

And he said, "The most prevalent health issue in this country is not cancer, heart disease, or obesity, it is isolation."

And I think that statement speaks so clearly of the need for us to have community, and not to isolate regardless of what you're going through, whether it is cancer or it is divorce, you need community.

And the worst thing you can do for yourself is to isolate.

- We'll dig into that as well.

Dr. Frazee, you tell me that women are leaving the workforce as they get older.

This is not what we want perhaps, or are they discovering other opportunities?

- Yeah, it's fascinating actually, that we have this data.

The McKinsey 2023 report shows women, especially ages 35 to 55, are leaving the workforce at record rates, which is the opposite direction that we want to be going, right?

And really, it comes down to inclusivity.

I think that women are realizing they want to work in places that really embrace all of the natural strengths that they bring.

And they're leaving their jobs, and looking on the market for those organizations that do really stand for gender equity.

And then when they can't find it, they're starting their own businesses.

So, it really is that women are, like you said, looking at their values, reevaluating their priorities, and then they're acting on them.

So, I think that is really interesting because through that same period of time, we also have women going through from a health perspective, a huge transition within their bodies.

And as our hormones are fluctuating, estrogen is the hormone that really helps us buffer stress.

So, as we may have more career stress and personal life stress, we are also potentially experiencing more intense stress responses in our body, and finding it harder to recover from stress as we move through a menopause transition.

And I think it's such an important time to really not live up here, figuring out our life choices, all these major life choices.

But really being in our bodies as we do that, and listening to our bodies, and learning ways to support ourselves.

But there's a really interesting statistic as well that is related, kind of countering ageism to some extent.

And that is that women in the 65 plus age category is the fastest growing demographic of workers.

And within the next 10 years, it's gonna be a large segment.

- You're talking female workers here?

- Female, women- - Even though you shared that we're leaving between 30- - 30 and 55!

- Were coming back!

- They're stepping back in later on.

And some of that I believe, is that when we compare women now to women in the '80s, for example, we have higher levels of education, more skills to offer, and they're really embracing flexible work styles.

So, being able to have non-physical jobs where they can work remotely, and still wanna contribute, and be a part of making a difference.

So, I think that that's really interesting.

And whether or not that has anything to do with being on the other side of that (chuckling) menopause transition would be a huge assumption.

But I do think it's another opportunity, where as we age, we can be proud of all of our experiences and what we have to offer all age groups.

- Hmm.

And Sabrina, I don't have the the resource, but I did hear that women in their 60s are having often the times of their lives.

So, having the activities that your agency absolutely affords.

I wanna go back to ageism.

Is it a legal issue now?

Do you see that where ageism one is told you can't teach a dog new tricks, and you're not qualified for this job?

- Absolutely.

If one is terminated from their job, and they feel as though that they were being discriminated against based on their age, that is something that they would be able to seek legal action for.

So again, really encouraging companies and organizations in our community to, again, embrace everyone in your workforce.

You hired them for a reason, they've stuck around for so long, they have wisdom, they have plenty of skills that they're able to share.

So, making sure that we are investing in them.

And again, as you had mentioned Crystal, there's so many different opportunities to work remote or be able to kind of meet them where they're at.

So, even if they might not be performing as, they're not in the office every single day like they were, that's okay, we have the capabilities to be able to meet people where they're at, and then go from there to still have them add a lot of power and input into the organization.

- Yes.

And again, good for us cognitively, emotionally, mentally.

- Yeah, it really keeps someone going.

- Kathey, a 60-year-old is going through a divorce.

Are there stages of grief on, I mean, are there stages that happen that before she is able to move on to that next stage of life?

- Absolutely.

First of all, there's usually the shock.

I have many people that come into my support groups or that I coach, that they are just in total shock that they are here.

And that's normal for you to be in shock, especially if you've been married 20, 30 years, and now all of a sudden, life has taken this drastic change.

And then, we go into the grief.

It's really necessary.

And that's true with any change, it could be a five minute time of grief, or it could be weeks and months of grief due to loss and change.

So, we need to address that.

What are our emotions, again, that's that emotion, that attitude of, okay, my life is over.

Well, your life is not over.

Your life is going through a very messy transition, but it is not over.

And that's true with a lot of changes that we go through, whether it's death of a spouse, loss of a job, and that's where your curiosity has to play in what's next, where do I wanna go?

What's really important to me?

How do I use this period of time to have purpose and to do fun things like a one woman show, or write a book, or mentor some single moms.

I work also with single moms a lot.

That don't let this time go to waste, it is too precious, you've worked so hard to get to this wisdom, now let's make it work, let's move forward.

And as I work with people and I see them the other side, it's like, wow, I did make it through this.

There is life after divorce or any difficult transitional change.

- Add to that, Crystal.

With the women you see, and then maybe I want to to move on to tips for this stress management as we go through a physical change.

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

Resilience, I call it stress resilience, some people call it stress management.

I mean, there's so many different ways to think about it.

But really, what we want is this invisible bag of tools that I refer to to already be there.

So that when we go through any life transition, either something sudden and unexpected, something that we planned for, whatever it is that we have already inside us, the ability to navigate it, that's the best case scenario.

That's what we all need.

And that's what I kinda advocate, that women especially need, because we're always facing kind of this double standard.

And with ageism, the term is the double penalty, because after 40, you're seen as older, and then because you also have some gender bias in there.

But the stress resilience is not just thinking of managing big emotions or stress in our body with a one hour yoga class.

But I love yoga, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's not sufficient.

We really need things that we can do every day throughout the day at multiple touch points to come back to ourselves, and to just be present, just fully present!

We're just not often present to ourselves enough, and that can make a huge difference.

- Sabrina, you mentioned stories.

Do you have a story to share about a female in her latter years that might be inspiring?

- Yeah, absolutely!

So, we spoke to one woman, she has actually been divorced, and kind of saw as a new time to embrace her life as well.

Moved down here to her kids, she was outta state, and she has just had the time of her life again, she has some kids down south, she goes, "I took a road trip for, I was driving by myself.

I go to concerts and dinners, so I'm just experiencing so many new things and meeting new people."

She loves to walk dogs as well.

So, try hoping to continue her dog walking business here.

And again, that is taking her out of that social isolation area because she is putting herself out there.

But really, just like, this is a new me, and a really a big time to just enjoy putting energy into what I enjoy doing, and finding new hobbies.

Hmm.

- I think the word is intentional.

- Absolutely.

- As well, right?

She made a decision that this is not the end of my life, I'm gonna be intentional in stepping out.

Good for her, love that.

- What about the sandwich generation, the woman that has to care for her parents and/or her children, adult children?

I'll start with you, Sabrina.

Yeah, so again, that's huge nowadays, is you're a caregiver, and then you also have maybe your own kids, and being a caregiver, I also wanna kinda expand on that, it's not always just you're taking care of your parents or your mom.

It could be a neighbor, it could be a distant family member.

So, there are a lot of people who we might not even know who are caregivers 'cause they're not taking care of their moms!

But it's a lot of work!

Especially when you talk about women.

Traditional roles are still kind of a thing even though we're, as a society, are getting away from them a little bit, but the mom is usually the one taking the kids to soccer practice.

So, there's a lot of stress that comes with that, of worrying about how we're taking care of different households, and culturally, as a white culture, we're different.

We have our separate households, and we live separately.

A lot of other cultures live together, and they take care of the family as a whole, and that's just how it has been from the time that they've been growing up.

So, grandma lives with them, aunts and uncles live with them, and they're able to help, and it's not necessarily as large of a burden on one person as it might be in our culture.

- And many cultures have a great deal of respect for their aged loved ones.

- [Sabrina] Yes, yeah.

- Perimenopause, do we prepare for these changes that, good, bad, ugly, and more?

- Well unfortunately, there's not enough knowledge or education for women.

I mean, perimenopause can start as young as 35, and I think many people assume that it's an older age where someone goes through that transition.

So yeah, I wish that we could have more advocacy and awareness that, as you're advancing in your career, you also are probably experiencing these other changes.

It's important not to internalize those changes, right?

Why maybe I'm feeling difficulty focusing, or why isn't my energy where it used to be, why can't I do what I used to do as easily?

Those might be something that someone is thinking as they're going through that without realizing that it's not a them problem, it's just biology, and that there's resources and simple strategies to move through that.

And kind of pairing off of what you were saying, that as a woman is going through these changes, and she's potentially in that sandwich generation, these increased levels of stress can contribute to a woman's risk of cardiovascular disease, which is unfortunately the number one killer that women experience, as well as cancer and autoimmune disease.

80% of autoimmune cases are experienced by women.

And so, it's so important that as all of these things are happening, that we think about the woman's inner and outer experiences, and especially as we move through the perimenopause shift, if there were more knowledge of what to do and how to keep performance up, it can be, as you said, "A really empowering time of like reclamation, reclamation," is the word.

Of reclaiming who one is and what they want, and how they're steering their lives.

- Kathey, put your certified mental health coach hat on.

How are we doing in this area of mental health, especially after the age of 60?

- We're not doing very well.

We're not doing very well at all.

We're not (voice drowns) - [Shelley] 'Cause that's part of healthy aging, right?

Mental- - Right, yeah, absolutely.

It's probably the key part of importance.

We're not doing very well because of our belief system of what the world is telling us that you're no longer effective when you reach this age, or you're getting to be an older person, that is far from true.

There is so much opportunity for you.

You need to find where are those groups that you could fit into.

So, mental health, we're not doing very well.

Because of the expectations again, because of the culture, because of our own limited belief that, okay, I am done.

Well, I'm not done.

I'm currently 67, and I'm doing all kinds of crazy fun stuff.

- [Shelley] I thought you were 57.

- Oh, thank you.

(guests chuckling) I shouldn't confess, actually.

So, there's so much life out there.

And you know, Shelley, because you take life by the horns every turn you take.

And it's only our limiting belief, and that's our mental health!

We're not healthy, we don't believe that there's opportunity.

So again, how can we get curious?

What's out there that I've never done?

Maybe I have something to say, maybe I do need to write a book.

Maybe it's a small booklet, but maybe I just need to step out there and take those risks.

Nothing changes without risk, right?

So, until you're willing to take a step, I wanna get healthier mentally, I want to involve myself in community, again, don't isolate.

God designed us to need other people in community.

You need to attach yourself to those people that are going to contribute into your life, and they are mentally healthy, and it can be easier for you to become mentally healthy.

- I know you've written the books.

We are now time for closing comments, for lack of better terms.

What's the action item from your niche, and how do we find out more?

I'll start with you, Sabrina.

- Absolutely.

So, to combat ageism, it's really, we want to create a community that prioritizes intergenerational contact and not secluding our seniors.

We wanna make sure that workforces are coming together and having resources to ensure that people who wanna be out in the workforce are able to be, again, preventing that social isolation and just watching what we say, "Oh you look great for your age," or "Oh, I didn't think that you'd be able to be riding a bike at this age," you know?

(guest speaking distantly) - Microaggressions, exactly, it's so easy to flip 'em off the tongue.

But again, if we sit and just think about the words that we're using, 'cause words matter.

It's just we'll be able to create a more inclusive and age-friendly community.

- And your organization, if I make a call tomorrow, can get me in to do some activities, yes- - Yes.

We have engaging wellness programs, we have mental health counseling programs, senior centers, a lot.

So if you go to our website at www.aaawm.org, you'll be able to find some information and give us a call.

- Wonderful.

Dr.

Crystal Frazee, what do you leave us with?

- I would like to leave our listeners with the idea that they can self negotiate for their needs.

They can advocate for themselves within their workplaces.

That women know that their own sustainability and stress resilience is the utmost important thing, and that the solution is to turn inward in towards their body, and to make sure that they're filling that stress resilience, stress management toolkit, so that they can show up as their best no matter what they're going through.

And building their own team, whether that's an executive coach or executive trainer coming in, with your physician, with a specialist to help you really, really buffer against all the things that we unfortunately continue to face.

Although hopefully, we're making some headwind there.

- Yes.

And what services do you offer personally?

- Yeah, with my company, I offer executive coaching for women leaders of organizations, as well as business owners, and organizational training, and keynote speaking.

- How do we find out more about you?

- crystalfrazee.com is the best way to learn about me, and for anyone wanting to go deeper into the topics that I shared, I also have a podcast, if it's okay if I share that, it's "Attuned Leadership for Women."

The tagline is, "Rewrite the Rules for Success and Satisfaction."

- Great, thank you for you.

We leave the last minute to you, Kathey Batey.

- Thank you.

Thank you so much, Shelley, for the opportunity to be here, and to discuss this really important topic.

My last minute will be connect.

You have got to connect with people and find your community, and perhaps you've been hurt by other communities, that's just on them, it's not on you.

So, find another community that you can connect with.

Find those women who are in the same space and place that you are.

I work primarily with people going through the transition of divorce.

So, the value of coming together with like-minded people, women who are in the same situation, or men in the same situation, has incredible value for us.

It normalizes our pain, it gives us an outlook, a curiosity of what's possible now.

So, please believe what's possible now, ask yourself that question.

- And what are some of the books you've written?

- I have written "30 Days of Healing After Divorce" and a series called "Suddenly Single," walking you through not only the divorce, but also what now- - [Shelley] Nice.

- The next phase after divorce and then a few others.

- Of course, find out more information quick?

- Yes, you can look me up anywhere, I'm on YouTube, LinkedIn, Facebook, Kathey Batey or Divorce Support Anonymous.

- Ladies, thank you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you for watching and supporting, take care.

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