From the definitive studios of Lehigh Valley Public Media in Bethlehem, PA, it is time for another Funk & Wagnalls episode of chemical free horticultural hijinks, You Bet Your Garden.

What do words like topsoil, humus and compost really mean?

I'm your host, Mike McGrath, and on today's show, we'll try and define the many terms we use for dirt.

Otherwise, it's a fabulous phone call show, cats and kittens.

That's right.

Potential guests are busy hunting for humus.

So we will take that heaping helping of your telecommunicated questions, comments, tips, tricks, suggestions and concertedly concise connotations.

So keep your eyes and/or ears right here, true believers, because it's all coming up faster than you learning the difference between soil and Shinola.

Right after this.

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- Welcome to another thrilling episode of You Bet Your Garden from the studios of Lehigh Valley Public Media in Bethlehem, PA.

I am your host, Mike McGrath.

But before we take your fabulous phone calls at our brand new number of 888 492 9444, it is time for a new but well-deserved feature on our show, the Department of Mistakes, Corrections and Accidental, as opposed to deliberate, Idiocy.

Remember a few episodes back when I described most of Texas as semitropical and an area that rarely had anything resembling a real winter?

Well, that unfortunate phone call was taped a few days before most of Texas froze over.

And none of us remembered not to use that call when it came time to put a new show together, or at least to add a mention that the call was taped way in advance and I was not the heartless beast I appeared to be, at least this time.

Seriously, we really do appreciate the level of disaster many of you in Texas and Oklahoma and other hard-hit areas are dealing with, and we hope you all have power, heat, water and especially new plumbing by the time this episode airs.

In other news, I seriously misspoke when I said during that same episode that neonicotinoids were in insect growth regulator during a phone call with a New Orleans listener about bark scale.

They are instead a chemically produced nicotine derivative that drives insects mad.

To put the stake in a little deeper, we showed a picture of plant canker instead of tree bark scale, which is about a thousand times smaller than our image might suggest.

We regret these errors in fact, imaging and judgment, all sandwiched into a single show, which is quite an achievement.

And as Max Bialystock said to the judge at the end of The Producers, Your Honor, we're very sorry and we'll never do it again.

Now on to your fabulous phone calls at that brand new number, 888 492 9444.

Jean, welcome to You Bet Your Garden.

- Hello, Mike.

It's good to talk to you.

- It's good to talk to you, Jean.

how are you doing?

- Well, I'm doing well, we're a bit cold right now, but we're good.

- And where is Jean well but cold?

- In central Pennsylvania.

- OK, in the Penn State - Right here in Bellefonte.

- All right, what can we do you for?

- Well, we, of course, are having a relatively colder winter zone this year than we have had in the past several years.

- Yeah!

- And the deer population has decided to feast on our rhododendrons.

- Oh, yeah.

- And they are being ferocious.

- Yeah.

- We in the past have, you know, sort of fenced in our rhododendrons.

And that seemed to help.

You know, we put one of those nettings over the bushes.

But, you know, in the last ten or 15 years, the winters have not needed that.

It would be snow and then it melts and then the deer can, you know, eat on the grass.

- So the marshal, the marshal left his gun back at the jail and the James boys rode into town.

- They did.

Oh, my gosh.

And what they're doing, and it's a little different this year, first of all, we've got, like, probably two herds that are coming in and there you know, there are about six to seven creatures per herd and they come up, you know, up from the stream and then they just start munching.

- Yeah.

- So they seem to prefer the hybrid rhododendrons, except now they've eaten all of those so they're going to the regular normal purple ones and they don't care.

Oh, and it's devastating because these rhododendrons are, you know, probably 25, 30 years old.

So they're beautiful and lush.

And, you know, last spring they were in color, breathtaking.

- Yeah.

- This year, I was thinking we might not have any more!

They're down to nothing.

But they're leaving the buds, which is to me, strange... - Well, that's kind of nice.

You'll get... - It is, but, you know, in past years, they were eating them.

Now they're just stripping the leaves.

- Bizarre.

- And I was out there this morning to, you know...

It makes me ill to see the devastation.

- I just figured out what's happening.

They made a deal with the evil squirrels.

The squirrels will get the buds.

- I think they did because there aren't any squirrels here right now.

Yeah, but here's what they're doing.

They're eating the leaves and then they just make a bed right underneath... - Awww!

- ..all the bushes that they just, you know, devastated.

And they're also going after the crepe myrtle, which I have never seen them do before.

- Well, here's the deal - Digging that all up.

So my question is, it's late in the season.

Just about everything is gone.

So what should I do?

Should I get Coyote?

- No, no, no, no, no.

Never, never use predator urines.

There is no proof that they work and the collection is cruel in the extreme.

I won't go into detail, because you sound like a nice person.

But in terms of plant favoritism, deer will eat your hostas first, but they're not up from under ground yet.

Then they'll go for any Arbor vitae that are in the area.

Then they'll go to the azaleas, then they'll go to the rhododendrons and after that they will eat holly.

They will eat, you know, horrible plants that are tough.

- Really?!

- Yeah.

You know, rather than, you know, it's...

When professionals and extension services make these lists of what used to be called deerproof plants, they've now settled on the term "these are the plants the deer eat last".

- Eat last.

- Eat last.

And this is because of the winter and because a lot of the food that they would otherwise feed on is hidden under snow and they need more calories because the temperatures have been so abnormally low.

And during a normal season, each deer is going to eat about six pounds of greenery a day.

So what I would suggest is you get to a garden center, if you can find one that's open, or go online and buy a deer repellant whose active ingredient is putrescent egg solids.

- Oh, OK. - That's the one that's been found to be the most repellent.

And if you have choices between brands, go with the one with the highest percentage of active ingredient.

I would spray your plants as soon as possible and spray them, you know, every two weeks to save whatever you can.

You know, when spring comes, there is no reason to believe that any buds that still exist would not flower.

But then I would suggest applying a good amount of compost at the base of the plant so that they, you know, they have the energy to grow new leaves, which they should be able to at this age.

And don't let the deer sleep under your plants, get, like, corrugated metal and put it around the base of the plants.

Farmers used to do this to keep deer off their property.

They would make a lay down on the ground fence of corrugated metal.

And as you can imagine, if you are a hoofed creature, walking on this, you know, uneven metal was really creepy and you'd go eat somebody else's rhododendrons.

- Thank you so very much.

I appreciate it.

- My pleasure.

- I enjoy your program so much.

- Thank you so much.

- Stay safe.

- Bye bye.

- Bye bye.

- 888 492 9444.

Kristina, welcome to You Bet Your Garden.

- Hi, Mike, great to talk with you.

- It's great to talk with you, Kristina.

How you doing?

- I am doing well, and how are you today?

- I'm just Ducky, thanks for asking.

Where is Kristina well?

I am in northeast Ohio between Cleveland and Akron in a little community called Richfield.

- All right.

What can we do for, Kristina?

- Well, Mike, I want to try my hand at growing asparagus this year, and I've done a little reading, I've done a little research, I have a brand new raised eight by four bed waiting.

It's about two feet tall ... - Two feet?!

Wow!

- I'm looking for some guidance.

- You're an overachiever?

- Yes.

It's a taller bed.

Yes.

Yes.

I don't like to bend.

And the little bit of reading I'm doing is leading me to the conclusion that I'm not going to be able to plant very many asparagus plants in this eight by four area.

So I'm looking for some guidance.

- OK, so typically asparagus is planted in flat ground.

It's one of the few crops that probably does better in flat ground than it does in a raised bed because like raspberries, asparagus spreads.

So to some degree, the limitations of your raised bed won't be an issue after a couple of years.

You're going to have new spears showing up outside the bed.

Now... - Oh, really?

- Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm presuming you're committed to using this raised bed.

- No, no, you know, in fact, the more I'm reading, I'm starting to think I'm limiting myself by using that and I've seen asparagus growing in flat earth and I thought, can I do that?

- Yes.

Yes, you can.

You know, we're always talking about raised beds.

But there are a few exceptions, things like raspberries and blackberries and asparagus that spreads and sweetcorn, which has a tendency to fall over in nice, loose soil.

It's shallow rooted and it needs to be planted in no offense to the sweetcorn, pretty crappy soil.

So do you have an area?

The problem with asparagus or the issue with it is trying to keep the weeds to a minimum.

So do you have a nice flat area that isn't really weedy that you can prepare?

- Well, I mean, we probably have to remove some sod.

This would be in a community garden area and it's a plot that has nothing on it except our little eight by four bed.

And then there's more open space around that that we could use for asparagus.

Would we remove sod first?

How do you prepare flat ground?

- Oh yeah.

No, no.

How did sod get into a community garden?

- Well, it's somebody donated land and it's, you know, very weedy grass in between beds and in between each plot.

- What I'm going to suggest is you guys rent a machine called a sod cutter.

And what this does is it sends this blade into the ground that will separate out the sod from the surrounding grasses.

And you can then just roll it up like they did when they harvested it.

Do this in small sections because sod is really heavy.

But I'm happier to hear that you're going to take out sod rather than just grass that was seeded or anything like that.

So when you remove the sod, the weeds should come out with it.

And then you have two options with the sod.

If you have an area that you'd like to put it down, you know, excavate some of the soil, put the sod down and keep it well watered.

But if you just turn it upside down, it makes a fabulous weed-preventing mulch that will eventually break down.

So the sod is very useful and I would consider using it for one of those two things.

So after you get the sod up, you're in pretty good shape.

What you're going to need is a good quantity of well composted, what they used to call well rotted horse manure.

Don't use any fresh manure, because that contains a lot of weed seeds.

But asparagus is a grass, like corn, and the only thing it wants, really, in the world of food is a lot of nitrogen, and composted horse manure is very nitrogen rich.

Back in the day, farmers were advised to plant their asparagus crowns into a bed of almost nothing but well composted horse manure.

And you can tell it's well composted because it doesn't have a bad smell, it's not hot to the touch and it just looks like good soil.

But that's really it.

Watch out for weeds.

That's the biggest enemy of asparagus.

And resist the temptation to harvest the first year, then the second year you can take a few spears and then the year after that you can harvest until the new spears coming up start to be really skinny like a pencil.

- Right, - And then you leave those in place to create their fronds, to absorb solar energy for the following year.

- Right, yeah, that's the pretty part of asparagus.

- It really is.

- Foamy, frothy fronds.

- Yeah.

- So let me ask you a quick question.

There's a product for sale around here called Sweet Peet in a bag, which is composted horse manure.

There's some other things in it.

Have you ever heard of that, Sweet Peet?

- I have heard of it.

I'm not sure why, however, it's called Sweet Peet.

Peat, of course, would mean to me milled peat moss, which is very acidic.

Sweet means alkaline.

So I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what's in it.

It would depend on the percentage of horse manure.

If it was mostly well composted horse manure with a little bit of peat that's been pH-adjusted, that sounds fine.

- OK. All right, and one more quick question, I was doing a little searching online for plants, for asparagus, and somebody is offering seedlings versus the crowns.

Do you have any opinion on that?

- I'd stay with the classic.

I'd stay with the crowns.

And I would advise you to get all male hybrids as opposed to the old heirloom types.

You'll get a much better harvest.

- Right.

OK. - All right?

- Very good.

Well, that gives me a lot of information - to get going with.

Thank you.

- Oh yeah, and use that raised bed for something else.

It would be a waste for asparagus.

- Yes, yes.

- All right.

- Good to know and all right, Mike, thanks for talking.

Good luck.

Take care.

Bye bye.

- Bye bye.

- Yes, it is once again time for the Question of the Week, which we're calling my definitions of dirt.

Regine from Braunschweig, Germany, the proud owner of, quote, a productive allotment, which is like a community garden in Europe, writes: All caps now: I LOVE YOUR SHOW!

And I fondly remember back when you were the editor of Organic Gardening Magazine.

Here comes my question.

After all this time, I still don't know what the yard dirt you keep mentioning is.

Also, what do you feel are good definitions for soil, topsoil, humus and compost?

Please explain, and please explain why you still recommend using peat moss.

All right.

Let's start with that last question.

Whenever I discuss peat moss, I try and make a distinction between European and Canadian peat.

I would never recommend the use of peat moss to our European listeners, of whom there seem to be more every day.

Keep those cards and emails coming.

I don't think there's any argument about European peat.

Your native bogs were overharvested to such a dizzying degree that entire ecosystems were changed.

But on this side of the pond, all of the peat moss comes from Canada, where, through a good amount of research, I have come to believe that the bogs are well managed and sustainably harvested.

I'm not sure if peat moss from Canada is available in Europe, but if it is, I would not hesitate to use it.

Coir spelled C-O-I-R, a similar material made from shredded coconut husks, is an acceptable substitute for making soils lightweight, but unlike peat, it doesn't provide the acidic conditions that plants like blueberries require.

All right, we move on to, quote, "your dirt".

Have I ever actually use this term?

I can't remember ever doing so.

But I have also lost my car keys and wallet for the fifth time this year, and it's only early March.

Anyway, yard dirt would be the existing unimproved soil on your property.

It may be heavy with clay, light with sand, or loamy, which is unlikely, as loam is an excellent soil for growing things and few of us are blessed with it from the get-go.

In Europe, North America and pretty much everywhere else, your existing soil could be contaminated with lead from postwar car exhausts and lead based paints, which were finally banned for use in the United States in 1978.

Before that, most paints, indoor and outdoor, were lead based.

A specialized soil test can tell if your dirt is contaminated.

If it is, don't disturb it.

Just install raised beds over the top of it, which you should do anyway.

To combine a number, a great number, of definitions, soil is the upper layer of earth in which plants grow containing organic remains, clay, sand, rock particles, minerals, gases and liquids.

Now, as I often say, there is no specific thing as organic soil, although soil that has been free of chemical fertilizers and pesticides for three to five years is considered appropriate for organic farming by the various certification agencies.

Topsoil, in bulk this term has no accepted meaning.

To hort geeks like me, topsoil is defined as the top five to ten inches, 13 to 25 centimeters, of undisturbed soil, like the layer of duff on an untouched forest floor.

In reality, it is the soil the contractors remove from the area around your home-to-be while they were building it and sold to their brother in law, who will be happy to sell it back to you.

Humus, not to be mistaken, with humous, this is a slippery one with many varying definitions and opinions, but basically it's the most organically rich component of soil, composed mostly of decayed plant and animal material.

It is nutrient rich, drains well, retains moisture and is essential for natural plant growth.

Most experts consider humus to be more like the classic horticultural definition of topsoil and less like compost.

But most sources agree that in general, humus is a poorly understood term, and the word has no legal meaning in the soil trade.

We finish up with compost, yay!

Finally, I don't need outside sources for this one!

Compost is a man and/or woman made material created by combining a large percentage of dried brown carbon rich materials like my beloved shredded leaves and a much smaller amount of wet, green, nitrogen rich material like coffee grounds, animal manure and/or vegetable waste.

Compost can be cold, the classic pile it up and it will eventually rot, or hot, which means paying strict attention to the ratios, using tricks like a roll of wire fencing placed down the middle of the pile to carry oxygen to the center and/or frequent turning.

Once finished, cold compost is a good soil amendment, but hot compost, which can be finished in a matter of weeks under the right conditions, is a much more effective fertilizer and has the added capacity of preventing or controlling plant disease.

No matter what anyone tells you, you cannot make compost out of kitchen scraps alone.

You just make a stinky mess.

And beware of grass clippings.

If they come from a treated lawn, the resulting compost could kill plants instead of feeding them.

Well, that sure was some interesting information about the many names we use for dirt now, wasn't it?

Luckily for yous, the Question of the Week appears in print at the Gardens Alive website.

To read it over at your "leesure" or your "lesure", just click the link for the Question of the Week at our website, which is still and will forever be youbetyourgarden.org.

Gardens Alive supports the You Bet Your Garden Question of the Week and you will always find the latest Question of the Week at the Gardens Alive website.

You Bet Your Garden is a half hour an hour long public radio show and podcast, all produced and delivered to you weekly by Lehigh Valley Public Media in Bethlehem, PA. Our radio show is distributed by PRX and the Public Radio Exchange.

You Bet Your Garden was created by Mike McGrath.

Mike McGrath was created when he was exposed to red kryptonite, blue kryptonite and white kryptonite on the same day and briefly turned into Lois Lane.

Yikes, my producer is threatening to hijack my humous if I don't get out of this studio.

Humus, humous, humus.

You say humus.

I say humous.

Let's call the whole thing off.

Anyway, good luck digging anything out of my place from under all that snow.

Anyway, we are out of time, but you can contact us any time at please insert new phone number... Oh, 888 492 9444.

Or send us your email, your tired, your poor, your wretched refuse teeming towards our garden shore at: Please include your location.

You'll find all of this contact information and our new phone number - yippee!

- at our website.

youbetyourgarden.org, where you'll also find the answers to all your garden questions, audio of this show, video of this show, audio and video of all the shows and our internationally adored podcast.

I'm your host, Mike McGrath, digging out from under the snow, hoping that the plow didn't garrote my garlic and wondering if I'll see soil in time to plant my peas on St. Patrick's Day.

Either way, I will see you again.