Wired Science

The interest i sciences has been curtailed by the reckless suits, the poor teaching of mathematics and the poor teaching ability of professors who fail to waken the curiosity and the interest of the pupils

Sometime in the early 1960s my parents gave me a chemistry set like the one my dad had in the 1930s. At a time when (as if this isn't still true) girls weren't expected to be interested in science. I didn't end up as a chemist, but I did end up feeling that it was OK to do something a little nerdish -- study linguistics instead of literature, which is what I thought you had to do if you liked language. I bet that chemistry set had something to do with that. I remember using it to try to make soap. So I was sorry to hear that chemistry has been so dumbed down.

No wonder this country (USA) is losing its edge in technical leadership in the world! We may have made things safer in the short term, but have made things less safe for us as a country in the long term - Do we (USA) want to be slaves (and have second-rate jobs) relative to other countries? Much of what I contribute (in terms of technical knowledge) to my family & society is due to the learning I had as a child with "unsafe" chemistry sets, etc. . The current national attitude contributes to the "dumbing down of America". The only comfort for my sanity is that I'll be dead and gone by the time the bottom really drops out of the American economy. What I have written up to this point is also related to our country's obsession with immediate economic gain vs. public funding pure unfettered research at universities. This short-sightedness of universities is evidenced by the increase of research grants overly tied to industry and university facilities funded and named by industry. This situation is really scarry regarding our country's future!

This goes beyond just Chemistry sets. It is the current attitude of our society that EVERYTHING should be completely risk free and if anything bad happens somebody should be responsible for it.
I had my first Chemistry Set by the time I was 7 or 8 and I was quite able to use a soldering iron by the time I was 10 and Solder has LEAD.
Life has risk and without risk there is no life or learning or future. How can we change the attitude that there should be no risk? If we don't our society will continue its decline.

works well for me.

I think this was an excellent segment, especially the part about how chemists were portrayed then vs. now. I never really thought about the representation of scientists much, but it's scary to think how things have changed subtly.

Uh-the owner of the "dangerous substance" company featured-was that Bob Lazar? THAT Bob Lazar? Mr. "I've-seen-real-alien-spacecraft-and-I-know-all-about-how-they-work" Bob Lazar? And they let him near dangerous chemicals?!
Boy, no wonder we're going down the tubes; loved the way they mishandled the uranium. . .

Bob Lazar? The same Bob Lazar that claims he worked in Area 51 and saw alien spacecraft and alien bodies?

It is very troubling that children are not being attracted to these fields and I think much of it is the rote memorization testing that is required of teachers today...Standards of Learning requirements in Virginia is the example in my state. It is scarey that we are declining in these areas. I think it would be helpful to have adjunct teachers whose only job was to be an accessory to JUST DO EXPERIMENTS in numerous classes so that the teachers can continue to teach their required learning information for testing. Another idea is to get some PR or marketing minds behind how to sell it to the kids. If they can sell video games with marketing, why not science, math, and chemistry? Marketing is the key. The science exposure once started will continue to interest. I have three children, two in college and one graduated. I base this on experience in our schools with my own kids.

Fortunately, United Nuclear, Firefox, and Skylighter are some of the only places that non-corporate buyers can still obtain small quantities of chemicals which can react with each other and be used to create pyrotechnics and fireworks. But continuing legal pressure by the CPSC is gradually forcing these and similar companies to either go out of business altogether or to curtail their sales of reactive chemicals to the extent that some of them are forced to close their business or seek other avenues for income. In the past 5 years, the CPSC has pursued and forced Pyrotek and Iowa Pyro completely out of business, and severely restricted what can be sold by United Nuclear and Firefox. There does not appear to be any end to this agency's attempt to make us all completely safe from ourselves. Our country is all the poorer for it.

Fifty years ago I was one of those kids with a Gilbert chemistry set - with strict orders NOT to use it when my parents weren't home. I guess I didn't listen very well, but about the worst thing I did was fill our 3rd floor flat with lots of white smoke. Although I didn't become a chemist, chemistry was one of my best subjects in both high school and college. I once figured out how to blow up the chemistry lab (and half the building) in high school without leaving so much as a trace of what I'd done; never did it.

Think of it! If the United States got rid of all the "dangerous" things, how would anything be discovered?
If that really happened, think what would happen to United States 50 years from now.

We sell guns like crazy in this country, let 16 year olds drive cars, but we are afraid to let kids play with a few chemicals. Boy are we mixed up. I volunteer my time to judge HS science fairs, and you hardly see a chemistry experiment in the group anymore. When I was in HS some 40 years ago, that was all you saw.

Now its environmental science and how bad industry and chemistry have been to us. Its good that we are living so long that we have the time to blame all this longevity on chemists and industry. Oh those who couldn't hack it as scientists and engineers; they became lawyers and politicians.

I have posted a comment on the show in general and on this segment in particular but so far I don't see it so I will repeat the part that is relevant here. The idea of dangerous science is very appealing, I think, especially to young boys. Witness the popularity of the Dangerous Book for Boys. I had a chemistry set in the 60s but there was nothing very dangerous about it so this is just a myth. I also had the very cool Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments. People claim that that had dangerous experiments in it and that it was pulled from library shelves but the only "dangerous" experiment I recall was the one where you made chlorine gas from household bleach and drain cleaner (Clorox and Sani Flush :) and then in very small quantities. (You can see for yourself: http://www.mediafire.com/?cd1e99ts2mc). Ironically a book from the same era, but one which I learned about much later, which explained in detail how to do really dangerous things, was Chemical Magic by Ford (Dover Press). It even had detailed instructions on making REAL nitrogen triiodide, not the much feebler nitrogen iodide made from household ammonia water and tincture of iodine that the segment on the show implies you can make. You can find the viewable book on Google books. I would have killed for this book back then. My criticism of the show in general and this segment in particular, is that it is not very accurate. As I said, chemistry sets were not very dangerous. They certainly did not contain the chemicals or instructions on how to make contact explosives as implied on the show. And even the kind you could make from household chemicals was not anything like what was shown on the show. For instructions on this and other pyrotechincal mixtures you needed to mail order the instructions from ads in the back of Popular Science, yet another source of dangerous science that was not even mentioned on the show. As for chemistry sets leading to college degrees in the sciences, they were only a part of the science-oriented toys available back then that encouraged people to go into science and engineering. Not the only motivating force as implied. I remember a plastics kit that had styrofoam beads and vinyl liquid and a sample of real aluminized mylar just like the material the Telstar satellite was made of. A common material now but very exotic then. I had telescopes, microscopes, excellent books, science shows, science museums, sci-fi movies, the space race, high school teachers, Walter Cronkite and much more to fire my imagination in the direction of science. I finally ended up with a physics degree and an advanced engineering degree. I think this segment was well-intentioned but fell short of the mark. It was dumbed down for the popular audience. And that is my critcism of the show in general. Not a show for the technically-oriented PBS viewer. More like a show for uncritical thinkers, the kind that watch Myth Busters on another network. ;)

You know, I'm a 14-year-old student and I would LOVE one of those sets. Science and math are pretty much my favorite classes. Yeah, I'm a geek.

Quite frankly, the chem sets were not all that great. The experiments were pretty tame. That's why you needed a book like The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments. You can download it here (http://www.mediafire.com/?cd1e99ts2mc). The book shows you how to make your own lab equipment from common materials and has experiments using only household chemicals. Far better than any chemistry set I assure you. I learned much more from the book than from my chem set. If you hang around the chemistry department of any college and ask the students for some chemicals and test tubes and tell them what you are doing, they would probably be glad to help you out.

For what it's worth, yes, it was *that* Bob Lazar. Same guy who believes he knows how an alien spacecraft at Area 51 works. We decided that none of those assertions changed the fact that he was selling some really interesting scientific gear to the general public, for reasons equally as interesting.

I just opened my newly-acquired copy of The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments and realized this is the book I had when I was about 11 years old. My Dad brought it home along with a big fold-out boxed Gilbert Chemistry Set. I actually made most of the apparatus pictured in this volume. Looking at these pages now is "just like goin' home." I learned first-hand how to crack water into the H part and the 2-O part, how to mix fertilizer and another common substance so we could "shoot stumps" on the farm, how to melt sulfur to make casting molds, how to mix thermite for a complete reaction - and the true purpose of student insurance. AND I still have all my fingers and toes and both eyes. It's disturbing to find out that I may rate a visit from Homeland Security if I happen to order enough material to demonstrate even the bit of physical chemistry that I still remember. (Which, by the way, includes nitrogen tri-iodide. Whoo-ha!)

This clearly describes a major national problem that is crying out for a solution. We need to get back to the attitude of "Better Things for Better Living, through Chemistry" if we hope to improve on the attraction of more and better students into science careers.

This clearly describes a major national problem that is crying out for a solution. We need to get back to the attitude of "Better Things for Better Living, through Chemistry" if we hope to improve on the attraction of more and better students into science careers.

I love everyones comments! I had a chemistry set in my youth and did a few "experiments" with it. Had a lot of fun, learned something and went on to be a chemist.
As a society, we have become fearful of all that we do not understand, and ALL of the physical sciences suffer as a result. I actually heard a teacher say recently: "chemistry, that's hard stuff to understand these nice scientists will explain it to you" when volunteering in a science in the classroom program in the public school system nearby. Imagine that! No wonder we are quickly becoming a second rate country WRT science and science education.
My most recent favorite quote is from Frank Scully and maybe appropriate for this subject: "Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is?"

@Joel Walker:

But you didn't learn about those dangerous things from The Golden Book. Don't add to the bad rap it already has. The book only shows relatively safe (by those days' standards) experiments. No explosives or anything even close.

@Jay T.:
Apparently this is not a new phenomenon. I recently rewatched The Day The Earth Stood Still and remember this line from Klaatu when questioned by a reporter if he was afraid of the space ship: "I am fearful when I see people substituting fear for reason." The reporter promptly walked away looking for a more palatable answer for the stupid masses. That about sums up the attitude of society in general to the truth in general and to scientific truth in particular. That weakens us as a society as you point out.

--> Foobaz - Completely true and no bad rap intended toward the golden book. What it provided, along with my first chemistry set, was a way to appreciate how science is "done," that it can be done by just about anybody and that it can be fun. I learned the other stuff later, after showing my instructors I'd also gained an appreciation for procedure.

Just about any science can provide the same effect, I suppose, but chemistry brings immediate gratification - things happen and they happen right away. You could, I suppose, start with geology, but most kids don't have the patience to wait for mountains to form and canyons to erode.

Thanks Admin, btw, for pulling duplicate oopsies.

@Joel Walker: True. I have to admit that I did mostly the chemical magic stuff with my chemistry set. I won't even talk about the pyro aspects of chemistry, even though that's probably most kids' interest. :) Like I said, I would love to have found a copy of Ford's book on the subject back then. But no book store or library would have carried it I'm sure. There were still restrictions on such knowledge. The Encyclopedia Britannica had a nice explosives chapter though. There was a kid in my class whose father was a chemist and had all the necessary chemicals at home and got all his information from the encyclopedia. I really envied him. I didn't get really interested in the science aspect until my high school chemistry class.

I think that the majority of Americans being scientific illiterate lies more with the hysteria that occurred with the launch of Sputnik 50 years ago (when I was 15). Suddenly we wanted many more scientists and engineers, so the science curriculum was totally changed and made much more challenging and designed to educate more scientists and engineers. I know a lot of women who went into elementary teaching because they didn't have to take science. Those few of us who love mathematics and science had a great time doing science, and I heard many stories of teachers (high school and college) who had warned that a large percentage of the class wouldn't be there at the end of the course. Chemistry was used as a "culling" class, and it culled. Then the universities required that all students take science classes, but the newly-developed curriculum was directed to the science-oriented student, and many liberal arts students were totally turned off or crushed. Being a girl in the physical sciences, I was unable to break through the glass ceiling, and when I finally threw in the towel and became a teacher, I was welcomed into the field. My students and I were very lucky that I did have a talent to make science more fun, adventurous and not threatening. I was lucky to have a fully equipped lab. Testing programs today have little or no science in them; so why put resources into science stuff? I have decided that most Americans see science as that irrelevant and too-hard subject that all students have to endure, painfully. They don't see that science is everything! So, I believe it is much more than the demise of the great chem sets (which were expensive, and not accessible to everyone) that have us in the current situation. The only thing I fear is ignorance, and I blame most of our collective woes on the lack of knowledge about how nature works! Whew! I feel better now!

"Chemical Magic", Ford & Grundmeier, ca 1993 still available form Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Magic-Leonard-Ford/dp/0486676285

-Sam

You can view the contents of Chemical Magic at Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=MKzL3WQoRh0C&pg=PP1&dq=intitle:Chemical+intitle:Magic&num=100&as_brr=3&sig=_w-WcvxqWmxkx05tLPJ0A5brLTg

Your program on October 24 was intensely interesting, but I cannot find it under "Wired Science" for a desied review. Maybe I am trying too soon. Thank you for presenting it on TV.
Robert E. Burks

I had one of the $23.00 - four fold chemistry sets that I had mowed many a lawn to get - and there were some chemicals that could be combined to produce mild pyro from it, even that one which was Gilbert's best was mild compared to what you can do around the home with a little Groom and Clean and a couple of other around-the-house stuff. My father was a doctor and was very much against the chemistry set, but when I pointed out that his had real 6-molar-plus chemicals in it that he had created in the basement of my grandmother's house he did not have a leg to stand on. My grandfather was a pharmacist and after my uncle caught me playing with real blasting caps ( he was in UDT, a real life frogman in WW2 ). They ran me through a real explosives course. Chemistry from my grandfather and shaped charges and types of triggers from my uncle. Which was just one of the knowledges that held me in good stead in my later years in Viet Nam. One of my greatest treasures is a real life college chemistry books from the world war one era. It has such really "dangerous" things like the Sovay Process and real pyro chemistry as it was to train real explosive experts for the war industry. It is amazing how our ideas get so conveniently changed due to the exegencies of the real world. PS. I still have all my fingers and toes. Does anyone know what Roplex is the basis of ? Lol. We have not only denuded the chemistry departments, but the physics, engineering, and math departments as well. We are headed for real and significant problems in these areas with respect to the rest of the world. Check in your local 2 year tech programs, you will find a lot of foreign persons doing the teaching. They, the other countries are producing these people, the chemists, engineers, and physicists. We are becoming a nation of second class educators. This is the real criminal act of the tree-hugging, no risk, crybabies in our education systems. Boston school libraries have nothing on us. We have banned ourselves out of the real scientific educations necessary to maintain our place in the power structures of the world.

It is rather funny that there are really no chemistry sets still sold today. My first was a "Gilbert Chemistry Set". I believe I was about 10 yrs old when I got mine.

It came with a variety of chemicals most of which I don't remember. I think one was elemental sulfur.

This kit spawned my interest in Science as I have been teaching chemistry at a high school level for 32 years and going strong.

I graduated from Texas Tech University with a biology degree and had to take many college courses in chemistry including organic chemistry. Therefore I am well rehearsed in the whole argument about why the science professional has declined. I am also a science teacher in Texas and I can tell you that the reason for the decline of science professions is because we cannot challange the kids the way that you and I were challanged even 8 years ago when I was in high school. I feel like we are making accomodations and modifications for every kid that comes through and none of the children are getting a good education in the core subjects especially math and science because they are being told its okay if you don't know this or that. If we don't fix this broken system and quite making excuses for kids in school then the US is going to be in for some troubled times.

I think it has more to do with the fact that science is not valued in this country. We use the engineered results of science all the time, but the government and private corporations aren't interested in either funding the research or staffing research labs. The same thing is happening in high tech IT jobs. Every time an IBM or HP stands up and say that they value technology and technical skills, why they are staffing their technical services teams in "low cost areas", such as China, India or Malaysia. It has nothing to do with not being able to find people in the U.S. to do the job, but rather finding people to do the job for a low cost.

The same thing goes for Chemists, Biologists and other science personnel: if you're cheap, they'll take you. If not, they'll let someone else do the grunt work first and then buy it out.

@ Foobaz. Thanks for the link to the golden book of chem exp. Unfortunately i didnt have anything like that during my younger days. You guys have lots of reasons to complain because the system is degenerating . From where i am things have always been this bad. Hope i can make a difference by atleast starting with my kid.

Boy, does this bring back memories of my basement 'chem lab' and my Chemcraft chemistry set! In 1952, I worked for weeks to earn the money for the biggest set I could find. And I entered college as a Chem major.

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i didn't have a "chemistry set" when i was younger, but i had a "crystal growing kit." my parents are both chemists, and i have fond memories of visiting their labs when i was younger, learning how to weigh things and watching the instruments run :)

i just graduated a month ago with a BS in chemistry (cum laude!). it's true, i get sneers, laughter, and confusion when people learn my degree is in chemistry. they ask "so what are you going to do with that?" there were only a handful of chem majors at my university. but i'm happy to know that my chemistry friends were all as enthusiastic about it as i am :) ... i plan on becoming a gen-chem teacher one day (after a hopefully successful career in industry), to try to encourage more people to love chemistry as much as i do.

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I'm on board with the fall off being attributed to "safety", "Accountability" and "Fear of Failure". I've been working in my field for just under 20 years. The same jobs that used to take us minutes, take close to an hour now due to the lower quality chemicals we use, the individual protective measures we have to do before the tasks and the followup de-clutter we do after the job. I half jokingly say "Eventually we won't be able to move from fear we might get a paper-cut that could get infected and fester into something life threatening".

I say bring on the erector sets, chemistry sets, and steam engine models (with water, flame, and real steam). Push our kids to "try" stuff, learn and grow in areas we lack. Most of all kick their growing butts outside and get them off their gaming systems and computers for a little while.

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