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We had just recently changed from a UN observing mission to a NATO mission.
Primarily, we were observing the border between Yugoslavia and Macedonia. Our
job was basically to ensure if Yugoslavia did send troops south of the border
in some of kind of retaliation for the air strikes, that we would give warning
to the other NATO troops that were serving in Macedonia at the time.
I don't think that initially we did. As part of the UN mission that we had
been performing for the month before, the people were generally friendly to us.
They would wave and smile at us as we went through. However, when we did
change to the NATO mission, we also changed our uniforms. We went to green
Humvees, and green helmets, and that's when we began to see a very drastic
change in the attitude of the people in the area towards our presence there.
I don't think it was wholly when the conflict began--it was even prior. A lot
of it started as soon as there was talk that the strikes appeared imminent.
We'd get protests from the locals, and some threw rocks. So it wasn't only
after the strikes began, but mainly when we changed our position.
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There's been considerable uncertainty over what you were doing there that
day, and especially, where you were. There are some suggestions that you may
have strayed at times across into Yugoslavia--therefore from the Serb point of
view, you'd be a legitimate target in time of war. Tell me what happened, and
where were you when it happened?
On March 31, myself and the two other soldiers, Andy and Steve, were conducting
a reconnaissance mission of a route that we would use as sort of an escape
route--a secondary escape route in case something did happen, if troops did
come across the border from Yugoslavia. This was an area that we'd operating
in for about a month now. The villages were all familiar to us. The roads
were all familiar to us. As we were coming back from performing that
reconnaissance, we had just gone through a village and we ran into what turned
out to be a deliberate ambush. It was set up to perhaps accomplish exactly
what did happen.
As we drove past the village, we began hearing pings on the back of our Humvee,
which we felt were rocks. That was common. . . . So we brought our gunner,
Steve Gonzales down into the truck, and decided to drive out of the area. . . .
to get away from whatever was happening. But after that point, we began taking
rounds from all sides, and we began to see soldiers appearing from behind
haystacks or rocks or boulders. There were about 30 of them, and they just
appeared out of nowhere. That's what led us to believe that it was
deliberately planned.
That's correct. The other guys had their own responsibilities. As commander, my job was to call. So I grabbed the radio, and called up my platoon sergeant, who was back at one of the positions. I told him that we were surrounded, and we were taking fire. I also gave him the position where we were. Evidently they didn't get all the coordinates of whatever our global positioning system said, and they only heard the first three digits.
My platoon sergeant asked me if I was joking. I told him I wasn't joking, and
that this was really happening. That's the last I heard, because something
went wrong with the radio transmission--maybe the antenna was shot off, or some
other condition happened that it was broken.
It certainly was hopeless. We'd already pulled our gunner down back into the
vehicle, and that was basically our only defensive weapon on top of the Humvee.
Also, in the peacekeeping mode that we were in, as a safety precaution, we
didn't have our weapons loaded and ready to fire.
It wasn't in the Hollywood sense where we put the white flag out, but we did
exit the truck after we became immobile. We couldn't move any longer, so our
decision was to get out. We were immediately surrounded by probably 30
soldiers on the three of us, so the odds were just a little too great.
I think they saw us each as punching bags at that point. There were probably
between five or six soldiers on each of us, kicking and beating us and
generally stripping all our equipment from us, and putting a lot of abuse on
all three of us.
Yes, it was. They were dressed in Serbian uniforms, and we recognized the
patches on their shoulders. While this was happening, there were a lot of
villagers standing around, and they made no effort to help the soldiers. But
they didn't obviously weren't interested in helping us, either.
I did. And obviously I was in shock. We were driving through familiar
territory. I'd been through that village probably ten times in the last month,
so just to be thrust in that situation so quickly and have this happen was very
surprising. Immediately after they pulled us out and roughed us up, they took
us back into the village. We were all placed on our knees, the three of us
with our hands behind our head. They put a rifle to the back of my head, so
obviously my reaction was that this was a classic execution position. I really
believed that was the end.
I would say probably for about minute we were in that position, until they
pushed us forward. Then we were laying on our stomachs as they continued to
search and beat us, and they were all standing around at this point, just kind
of watching.
Not particularly. There was some cursing. Obviously they were familiar with
English slang. There was a lot of accusing us of invading their country. This
was in real broken English, and we'd just pick up phrases. They asked us who
we were and what we were doing, implying that we were not where we were
supposed to be. But other than that, the English was very rare.
I don't think they were, because it was such a deliberate ambush, and it was
such an identifiable location that was clearly in Macedonia. In fact, that
village is not in one of the contested areas--although the border is
contested--so it was clear that we were in Macedonia. I don't know if their
intent was to make us believe that we were in the wrong place. That would
probably be the most likely thing. That's my opinion.
There was some more searching going on, with different people. That's when
their senior leadership began to take over what was happening. As we laid
there, we would continue to get beaten. Someone would come running up and kick
us. The black eyes that I got were from a kick that I received while I was
laying there, after the initial beating took place.
A man came up from my left side and just kicked me with full force, right in
the face. My nose immediately began to gush blood. After that, they did bring
up some gauze and put it on my nose after he kicked me. This stopped the
bleeding, but that was probably the harshest blow.
We were probably there in that position for 15 or 20 minutes. Then we were
just thrown into the back of a truck. They drove for about an hour or so, at
first through twisting, bumpy roads, and then what seemed to be a major
highway.
That's a good question. We're not exactly sure where. The first place we did
stop looked like some kind of army barracks, and that's where we received our
first medical attention. They looked at us and evaluated whatever wounds we
had sustained. We stayed there for about a half an hour, then we drove for
another couple hours. I believe we ended up in Nis, a city in southern
Yugoslavia.
We were together up until when we arrived in Nis. That's when we were
separated, and didn't see each other much, except for the filming that you saw.
. . .
Once we got to Nis, we were individually in a room where they had sort of a
press conference set up. There were cameras, and civilian and military
officials there, and they began to question me. I assume they did the same
with the others. The purpose of their questioning was not necessarily anything
that was in our spectrum of knowledge. It was basically political questions,
policies of the government, the purpose of the bombing, and things that really
I had no knowledge of or any relevance in discussing with them. We weren't
told what to say. It was more of an interview, a question-and- answer
thing.
No, no. That was never presented. We were asked to make a statement a couple
of days later. But all it told was that we were part of NATO in an effort to
invade the peaceful people of Serbia. I'm not sure if it actually said
"peaceful," but it said I had invaded the country of Yugoslavia.
The cameras were there very early in the capture, probably within the first six or seven hours. After that point, they began interrogations, which continued with the same line of questioning--not necessarily focusing on our mission or what our purpose was, but the greater picture of how our army operated, and what not. There was also a form of torture involved, in that we'd be left for hours and hours.
The whole time we were hooded and handcuffed, with bags over our head. That in
itself was a form of torture, in that we would never know what was happening.
We never knew when we'd be interrogated. We were watched with a guard maybe
feet from us 24 hours a day. If we moved from a certain position, we'd be
kicked or beaten. It was definitely an effort to break our will.
I didn't see exactly that they were looking from me to break personally, so
that wasn't my main concern. My main concern throughout the whole time was if
we would even get out of that situation, because there were so many different
circumstances when it appeared to be a good time for them to kill us. Within
that first seven days, I was just preparing myself for the fact that we may not
make it out of there.
There was. At one point during the interrogation, they had asked me to give
the address of my family back in the States. and I didn't give that to them. I
didn't tell them, and at that point, one of the guys came around me with a
baton. He brought it around my neck, and one of the other guys lifted up his
coat showing a revolver, implying that if I didn't tell them, then obviously
they'd kill us. But was something I just was not going to do, and it wasn't
pressured after that point. I don't know if that was a bluff or what, but
luckily they didn't pressure me anymore.
Right. They continued to imply that throughout the initial period. Throughout
the interrogations, they believed we were either an effort sent in to find
downed pilots, or we were the lead element of some kind of ground invasion. We
were never specifically told we were POWs. In fact, they did mention at one
point that we would be put on trial, and that would determine what would happen
to us. That was obviously a question I asked many times--what was going to
happen. They said that it's for the court to decide, that you'll be tried as a
war criminal. . . . That was only mentioned once, and after that we never heard
anything about it.
Oh, certainly. We didn't have the opportunity at all to talk to anyone other
than in the interrogations, which were not exactly conversations. So we were
left in the dark with a bag over our head, handcuffed, laying on a wooden
floor, 24 hours a day. Their intent was obviously that kind of torture.
No, we had no idea what was happening, aside from my own personal belief that
that was happening. At several points, they had told us that the government
hadn't asked for our release. They asked why did I think that they hadn't
asked for it? I didn't believe that, and I knew that wasn't the case. But as
far as the Cypriot president's efforts and Reverend Jackson's efforts, we had
no knowledge at all of what was happening in the political issues of our
case.
No. We were brought to a new place at that time, moved from the prison where
we had been at for several weeks, to a new building. Until we walked into the
room, until they opened the door of the room where we met him, I had no idea
what would happen in there. I wasn't sure if it was another interrogation, or
if it was some kind of trial that they had threatened so long ago. Really, it
could've been anything.
Right. Obviously, I was just shocked to see these faces. . . . I did
recognize him immediately, and he introduced himself, which I found kind of
strange. I was speechless at the time. I really didn't know what to say,
because I had anticipated the worst could happen here. I wasn't expecting to
see a friendly face or expecting to see someone who was there to offer some
encouragement. So, at first I couldn't even talk. I was just speechless.
He didn't offer any kind of explanation as to why he was there. All he did was
offer some words of encouragement. He gave some prayer, inspiration and some
words from the Bible or some scripture. Other than that, it wasn't clear, and
I wasn't expecting that he was there for that reason. In fact, I had
anticipated he was there with the other people as some sort of humanitarian
mission to find out how we were--to make sure of our treatment, and things like
that. The next day, when we met with him the second time, he began to hint at
the fact they were working on our release. That was the first I had any idea
of why they were there.
I didn't. I had listened to the air raid sirens every day, several times a
day, and I always believed that as long as the war was still going on, there
was no reason for them to release us. So when the members were hinting that
they were working for our release, I was filled with hope, but I was very
skeptical. I was trying to keep myself from getting my hopes up too high.
That Saturday night that we had met with him earlier in the day, I was sitting in the cell. One of the senior prison officials came in, who we had only seen a couple of times, mainly when we were brought in there. He was in civilian clothes. It was late at night, right around bedtime when they'd usually to tell us to go to sleep. He came into the cell, told me to sit down, and he sat down next to me.
He didn't speak any English and, but he spoke a couple of words and he said
"Home," and he made an ascent of an airplane with his hand. He said, "Home
over the USA," or something like that. I finally really believed that maybe it
would happen. That's when I first started to accept it a little bit. I wasn't
saying, "Okay, it's over now, that's it," but it was definitely very
encouraging that he was there, and it seemed like it was really going to
happen.
Yes, it was. It was probably the longest night that I've ever had.
After his visit, they made a big production of getting all our stuff packed
up--some books and some hygiene products that the Red Cross had brought. So
we're all packed up. . . . I was sitting there on the bed waiting. . . . I
think they were under the impression that that we'd be moved that night. But
then around midnight one of the normal guards came in and said in broken
English that it wouldn't happen until the morning--it was unsafe to go out that
night because of the bombing. He told us to go to sleep and we'd leave in the
morning. That was impossible. Sleep wasn't something that I could've done,
and I didn't all that night, except for maybe an hour before sunrise. I lay
there all night, hoping and praying that it was really going to happen.
I do. We were standing against the wall after they had done the signing and he
said, "The first thing I want you to do is take your hands from behind your
back, because you are now free, you're free to embrace." That's what he
said--his exact words--I remember it quite clearly. And so we did. We walked
up to him and this huge religious delegation was there. They hugged us. We
got to use the phone and call our families, so it was just terribly emotional.
He would later dub me as "the weeping prophet" because often, throughout that
course of time, I had trouble not crying. I was always so filled with emotion.
It was just an unbelievable feeling. It wasn't quite over until we were out of
Yugoslavia, and I think all three of us were still on edge until we were
totally clear of the area.
As a human being, you do think things like that. You can recognize the fact
that nations war against each other, armies war against each other, and the
people of an entire nation are not always enemies. With the kind of person I
am, there was a sense of regret that this terrible conflict was still
happening. Clearly, it was no good for anyone. No war is, but the outcome was
just. I had to keep that in perspective--that what we were fighting for was
right, and it was just. The implications of that had to be accepted.
I do. When I look back on it and see all the hardship that we had to go
through, it makes it easier to think that you may have gotten stronger. I
became a better person because of it, and I'll be able to deal with adversity
in my life in a better way, using that as a reference. For the rest of my
life, I'll be able to say that no matter what hardships I face, if I had the
strength to go through that, I can certainly deal with this.
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