>> Welcome to the Vermont Public 2026 General Election Debates.

I'm Mikaela Lefrak, the host of Vermont Edition.

This show is part of a series of candidate interviews and debates ahead of Election Day on November 3rd.

Today,e candidates for lieutenant Governor here with me in the Vermont Public Studio are the Republican candidate, Lieutenant Lieutenant Governor John Rogers of Glover.

He was elected in 2023.

He's a former state senator and representative.

He runs a masonry and excavation business and a cannabis farm.

Next, we have the Democratic candidate, Molly Gray of Burlington.

She served as lieutenant governor from 2021 to 2023.

Her other previous roles include assistant Attorney general and executive director of the Vermont Afghan Alliance.

Now, throughout today's debate, you'll hear some questions submitted by you, our audience this Thursday is our U.S.

House debate, and our gubernatorial debate is on October 21st.

So if you want to submit a question for candidates in either of those races, you can still email it to Vermont edition at Vermont Public dot org with the subject line debate question.

All right, let's run through the format for today's debate.

In the first segment, I'll ask questions to both candidates.

They'll each have 60s to answer.

I'll also likely ask short follow up questions.

In the second segment, the candidates will ask each other questions.

They'll have 30s to ask a question, 60s to answer.

We'll start our third segment with more questions for both candidates.

Then there's a lightning round, and we'll wrap things up with one minute closing statements from each candidate.

All right, let's begin.

So the lieutenant governor cast tie breaking votes in the Senate and helps make committee assignments.

There are also one heartbeat away from being governor.

But on a day to day basis, the lieutenant governor doesn't have specified responsibilities.

So with all that time, at your discretion, how will you use the role?

And we'll begin with you.

Molly Gray.

>> Sure.

Mikaela, thank you so much for having us today.

John.

Good to see you.

And thanks to everyone tuning in.

I've seen this office work really work for Vermonters.

It's not a ceremonial one.

It can be one that can help advance universal primary care, lower costs for the state by working to advance really key priorities.

Today, I hope we have a chance to talk about health care costs.

My plans to make housing more affordable and accessible for Vermonters, ways we can bring down property taxes.

It's an opportunity, this office to convene, to speak out, to speak out about what's happening in Washington and unlawful federal action when it comes to the state.

It's an opportunity to help Vermonters understand what is right, what is wrong, what is lawful, what is not.

This office can be a real champion working with other statewide elected leaders to really take Vermont in a new direction, work with the legislature, and make sure that the voices of Vermonters are heard in Montpelier every single day.

>> So during the primary race, you talked a lot about how you see this role as a platform for speaking out against certain federal policies.

And I wonder if you also plan to use the role to help develop legislation, or is that something that you think is better left to elected representatives?

>> I think this office a couple of things.

One, for the last few years, I've worked with an organization called the Vermont Afghan Alliance and have really seen the cruelty and inhumanity of the Trump administration up close.

And there have been a number of moments where Vermonters have been looking for leadership.

At the time when the state handed over Snap data, when Vermont wrongfully and ended Snap for our newest neighbors, when Vermonters have been detained by Ice and again and again, we need every statewide elected leader using the tools that they have to speak out to help Vermonters understand what is right and wrong.

I'm a former assistant attorney general, a lawyer by training, and I think that background and experience is really helpful right now.

But then there's this opportunity to bring all sorts of ideas from all across the state into the statehouse, and to really push for legislation that lowers costs, which is why I tremendously support universal primary care plans to bring down health insurance premiums, stabilize our education system, and provide meaningful property tax relief to Vermonters.

>> Thank you.

And same question to you, John Rogers, with the discretionary time that comes with this role, how do you plan to use it?

>> Yeah.

Well, I think the big difference between myself and my opponent is that I have used the office to do the work of the people.

I've seen it as a great platform that's been underutilized for many years.

And I've literally had people come into the office and tell me that they've never seen a Lieutenant governor's office do so much work.

We've actually, excuse me, developed, developed legislation in there to help residential substance use treatment.

We helped write a resolution for Tara Geraghty-moats, who is a world class athlete here in Vermont and participates in Nordic combined, which is the only sport that women aren't able to compete in in the Olympics, that men are.

I got that resolution signed by the governor.

I'm also on the executive committee of the National Lieutenant Governors Association and was able to take it national and get it passed there as well.

So it's a real opportunity to lead and get things done.

>> Do you also see this role as a space to platform for for policies more broadly, that you think that Vermonters want to see passed, that maybe are at odds with the federal administration, or is that less of a priority for you as lieutenant governor?

>> Well, I've certainly done some of that, but I think my main priority is taking care of Vermont.

And one of the things that sets me off from my opponent and others who have taken that job on, is I do a massive amount of constituent work.

So connecting constituents who have issues with the department and often the department heads to resolve problems.

And so I spend a huge amount of my time on the phone talking with Vermonters.

And that's a that's a really important aspect that people have taken note of.

But we also have become a hub for the legislative session where people, individuals, groups and legislators come to help forward legislation that helps Vermonters.

But also a lot of the work we do is stopping bad policy from going forward.

So I think when you look at the two of us who've each had two years there, I used the office to help Vermonters, and my opponent used the office to run for Congress.

>> We'll have a chance to get into that a little bit later.

I want to talk about the urban rural divide that exists in Vermont right now on the campaign trail.

You both often highlight your rural roots.

Molly Gray you were born in Newbury.

John Rodgers you are in Glover in the Northeast Kingdom.

What do you think?

Montpelier fundamentally misunderstands about life in rural Vermont?

John Rodgers we'll start with you this time.

>> Well, I think that's another place where the two of us are very different.

You know, I grew up working on the farm.

I know my opponent grew up on a farm, but I chores before I went to high school, I did chores when I got back from high school and worked on the weekends in the summer.

So even when I was going to high school, I was putting 20 or 30 hours a week working on the farm.

My opponent had the privilege of going to a like $76,000 a year private school, something that very few Vermonters have an opportunity to go to.

But when we talk about working on the farm and knowing about farming, I've done the work and I still do the work on my farm, leading by example, building deep soil and planting crops to build climate resilience at the top of the watershed.

One of my objectives is to make sure that we continue to build deep organic soil and help farmers grow more food so we can actually feed New England and do the same thing with other foods as we do with milk, which is ship out millions of gallons and create billions of dollars of economic activity.

>> Now, before I ask you a follow up question, I'm going to toss it over to Molly Gray.

Since you've made some specific statements about Molly.

So give me a chance to respond there.

>> We're already just getting started here in the.

The personal attacks are coming, but yeah, so I was born and raised on a vegetable and dairy, born in a 1790s farmhouse that still doesn't have a dryer, dishwasher, microwave.

I grew up helping my folks working in the farm stand, and we knew from March to October it was all hands on deck.

You know, I'm not going to question anybody's childhood.

And I was lucky enough because I, you know, as a kid growing up in rural Vermont, as you probably know, Jon, you spent a lot of time outside.

It turns out it was a pretty good cross country skier and got a scholarship to go to a ski academy, but also got a full ride to UVM, which for a farm kid from rural Vermont is a tremendous, tremendous deal.

And I'm really proud of that.

And I don't think it's appropriate to to make light of that.

And but the question was about rural Vermont and our rural communities being left behind.

And I think today, if we look at every measure from access to rural health care to access to our community schools, to farms remaining viable, we see a hollowing out.

And we're at a real crossroads here in the state.

Are we going to continue to turn the lights off from rural communities, or are we going to make real investments that allow rural communities to thrive?

And I'm here to put forward real ideas and vision for the latter.

And I think that's what Vermonters deserve, rather than political games and attacks.

>> Question for both of you.

I'll give you about a minute to respond on this one.

I want to talk specifically as we're talking rural, urban divides about what happened with act 181 in the last legislative session.

For folks who weren't following this, act 181 was a law that was aimed to encourage housing and development in certain designated growth areas.

And this past spring, hundreds of rural Vermonters protested elements of this law at the state House.

They argued that some of the conservation rules for one infringed on their property rights, and the whole thing didn't prioritize rural communities.

And the legislature.

Governor Scott ended up partially repealing act 181 at the end of the session.

I'd like to know from both of you what you took away from that whole scenario that played out over the course of a couple of years.

That will impact your work as Lieutenant Governor, John Rogers.

>> Well, first, I'd like to say in 2024, when that bill passed, I was not in elected office, but I came in as a citizen and with a group of other people, put on two rallies to push back against act one, 81 and several other pieces of policy that the supermajority forwarded that cost Vermonters hundreds of millions of dollars.

So this is something that I've been doing for 20 plus years, trying to stand up for Vermonters who work the land.

And my opponent had the opportunity but didn't come to those rallies.

And I don't think really knew much about 181 or had an opinion on it.

If you go back on on her record on social media, I stood firmly from that time, and it was actually part of what got me to run again was montpelier's overreach.

And so my position has been clear, and we're glad that we got rid of those two pieces of policy.

But if we want business to come to Vermont, we have got to totally revamp land use regulation.

And also the A and R and D, E, C permitting.

>> Thank you.

Excuse me.

Molly Gray.

>> Yeah.

I wasn't in the legislature.

I haven't been there, what, 20 years now?

I think John and I was there when I served as lieutenant governor and then spent the last few years growing a statewide organization, growing our workforce and our tax base.

I became a mom, a mom to a three year old now, and have helped care for my mom, who battles M.S.

and like a lot of Vermonters, learned about act 181 at the time.

When the maps came out and everyone was trying to understand whether they fell into tier three and and how the road rule would impact their property.

And I come back to conversation that actually had with members of my family who are still farming today and navigating current use land conservation, farm viability, multi-generational farming, and all the costs that come with that.

And there was this point where there was a feeling that whether right or wrong perception, that one player had completely lost touch with rural Vermont, with our loggers, with our farmers.

You know, the question kind of came up, you know, do they trust us to know where to build a pig shed?

And they think that we're stupid enough to build it on a wetland.

You know, I raised that as just sort of a hypothetical.

But the point, the point now is where do we go from here?

What other efforts can we take on to modernize, support farm viability, continue to reform act 250 where as needed, and make sure that all Vermonters have a voice in Montpelier and every piece of legislation we pass goes through a lens of, is this good for rural Vermont, and does this support rural Vermont and also thriving?

>> Well, we are going to return to the topic of farming a little bit later in this hour, but let's move on for now to another big issue that a lot of people wrote to us about ahead of this debate, which is education and property taxes.

So a dual issue, if we will.

I want to use the situation that Barre residents are facing in particular for this one.

Barre residents have voted down their school budget three times this year.

Theirs is the only school district left without an approved budget, and it's already one of the leanest school districts in the state in terms of spending.

They're going to vote for the fourth time on their budget on Election Day.

And I want to know if you were to travel to Barre in your capacity as lieutenant governor, let's just well, you already are, but let's pretend that you're going there this week.

What would you say to people there about property taxes and the cost of education?

Molly Gray.

>> Yeah, no, thank you so much for bringing this up and I continue to say this.

We've seen sort of an observation or management of decline in the state.

Property taxes continue to go up, crushing working families and especially crushing individuals who are on fixed incomes.

I hear about it every single day.

We know that education costs are what drive up our property taxes.

We know that health insurance premiums are the largest driver of property tax of education costs.

And so if we want meaningful property tax relief and we want to stabilize our education system, we have to get at the root cause and figure out how to bring down health insurance premiums.

And we know hospital costs.

And Vermonters not having access to basic preventative care in their communities and going to an emergency room for care is part of what drives up costs and premiums.

So it's why I have continued to put forward and will continue to advocate both for investments in universal primary care and bringing down costs, but also in building more housing that Vermonters can afford.

So we grow our tax base and workforce.

>> But what do you say to Barre residents right now who are seeing their education budget get cut, who have high property taxes right now and are saying, I love these ideas, but I don't have time.

>> Yeah, I'd say, you know, you have a choice in this election.

You can stick with the status quo where we've seen property tax and health insurance costs continue to go up and up and up, or you can help Vermont chart a new course where we have real plans to bring those costs down.

And that's what you get in me as lieutenant governor.

>> Thank you.

And John Rogers, what do you say to the folks in Barrytown and Barrie City right now?

>> Well, I think my opponent and I agree with one thing, and that is we can't afford the status quo.

20 years of liberal agendas in the legislature is not only what caused me to switch parties, but it is what has caused us to have some of the highest property taxes in the country.

Back when act 46 passed, I actually proposed an amendment that would have held high spending towns accountable and put some downward pressure on the cost.

Cost increases in education and the leadership in the legislature rejected it.

And so it is clearly the the same folks that are supporting my opponent that have caused us to get here.

And my opponent, I mean, my amendment was very similar to the foundation formula.

It would have set a set limit if a town wanted to spend more than that, they would have had to raise it locally.

And for every dollar they raised, $0.50 would go back to the education fund to help poor schools.

But that was rejected.

>> Again, same question that I posed to Molly Gray voters have to vote on this on November 3rd.

What do you suggest that they do?

>> Yeah.

It's unfortunate.

I really wish more towns would have voted their budgets down to send a message to the legislature, but I think at this point they need to get a budget.

It's time.

>> Thank you.

Our next question.

We get a break from my voice.

It comes to us from a listener named Becca in Huntington.

Here's Becca.

>> Vermont has the equivalent population of a mid-sized U.S.

city and one of the oldest populations in the country.

These two demographic facts are the root of the major cost drivers and issues plaguing the state regarding affordability, housing, education, and health care.

What innovative solutions would you support as lieutenant Governor to attract and keep young people to the state, as well as achieve improved economies of scale?

>> Thank you to Becca in Huntington for that question.

So essentially, apart from putting something in the water where everybody starts having quintuplets, all of a sudden John Rodgers, what are you going to do to help achieve these economies of scale?

What can we do?

>> Well, there are several things that from the day I got into office, I have been going around and visiting tech centers and talking with young people and visiting businesses who provide apprenticeship opportunities, and I think we have to continue to build that network, because when I go on a construction job, the majority of the people are my age, not my kids age.

We've missed a whole generation of tradespeople.

So that's number one.

Give kids who want to go into the trades the skills they need to get a good job, but they they can't buy a house here and be here unless we get the property taxes down.

If you gave a young family a house that was worth 4 or $500,000, would they even be able to pay the property taxes?

So we have to address the other cost drivers.

We have the highest health care insurance cost in the entire country.

There.

Again, that was driven by the people in the legislature that are supporting my opponent.

And that's why I say change the status quo.

Let's fill the seats in the legislature with some new people and take a new direction so that our kids can afford to live here.

>> Are Molly Gray has brought up universal primary care, something she very much supports.

Is that something that you would support as a potential way to lower the cost of health care?

>> Well, my opponent hasn't laid out a plan on how to pay for it, and devil's in the detail.

It's easy to say we're going to give free health care, but we spend 6 to $8 billion on health care in Vermont a year.

And so she hasn't laid out who's going to pay for it and how much.

And those are pretty important details.

I would say that I believe the United States needs to get there, and it definitely isn't going to under this administration.

But the Biden administration and previous administrations failed as well.

We are already spending enough tax dollars in the United States to provide universal health care for everyone.

But unfortunately, we're only providing it for 30% of the population.

And what's really disgusting is the fact that Congress gets the best health care coverage in the world, and taxpayers pay for it.

So there's no way you can do it here in Vermont.

We're too old.

It's too expensive.

And my opponent and and Miss Janu have both said that they want to give this away, but they've not shown us who's going to pay and how much.

>> Well, for much more on health care, be sure to tune in to our gubernatorial debate on October 21st.

Molly Gray will turn this over to you.

I'm guessing you're gonna want to talk health care, but let's first just return to Becca's question about attracting and keeping young people in the state and achieving those economies of scale.

>> Yeah, I mean, first things first.

If we want to welcome more young people to the state, maybe we need some young people, younger people.

I'm not young anymore at the table, helping to figure out how to figure out a strategy.

So let's talk about the strategy.

What I hear from all sorts of employers across Vermont, folks I've worked with over the last few years to grow our workforce and tax base by welcoming new Vermonters, is that we don't have the housing that's needed to grow our workforce.

So I've put forward a detailed five part housing plan.

I want to talk about two of those parts right now.

One, continuing to find ways to cut red tape so that developers can build more quickly.

I support a Vermont model code, ensuring that state or sorry, towns that would like to can opt in and adopt a drafted simply by predictable objective code so we can build more housing in our communities.

The second piece is launching what I'm calling the Vermont Housing Corps, incentivizing the next generation of plumbers, electricians, carpenters to help us meet our housing goals.

We have more housing.

We can grow our grand list, we can bring down taxes, but we have to also do that in concert with addressing these soaring health care costs, which we also have a plan for.

>> All right, let's talk about that.

You have about.

>> Yeah, sure.

So the question is, how do we fund health care right now?

There's there the first the first answer we have the the first question, excuse me, we have to answer is how do we define universal primary care?

And then where in the state do we have these big health care deserts where people, for example, in Hartford, are calling the emergency services providers to get a ride to the emergency room for basic preventative care?

What I believe is that we have a responsibility to consider recouping the Trump tax cuts and possibly increasing the tax on luxury second homes in Vermont, not hunting camps, not workforce housing, and investing that directly into a program that we know brings down costs, helps stabilize our education system, and provides Vermonters meaningful property tax relief.

So that is our that's our obligation at this point, and the very least, to have a conversation about how we could do it.

>> Thank you.

We have discussed already some policy ideas that I imagine one political party in Vermont very much supports, and another political party very much doesn't.

So I want to ask you both about bipartisan leadership, because Vermont is one of the very few states where voters might actually still elect a leadership team from multiple parties.

So if you get elected alongside a governor of the opposite party, I want to know how you would go about establishing what you would consider as a good working relationship, a productive relationship.

So Molly Gray, that means in this scenario, you'd be serving alongside Governor Phil Scott and John Rodgers.

In this scenario, you would be serving alongside Governor Amanda Janoo and Molly Gray.

It's your turn to start here.

>> Sure, I'll start by saying I'm not a product of Montpelier.

I've worked in communities all across the state and as an attorney, and I'm largely a nonpartisan person.

When I was elected lieutenant governor, the first thing I did was call the governor and figure out how often we could meet.

And we met regularly, talking about all sorts of issues happening in the legislature.

We were also at the height of Covid, and there wasn't time to worry about who was a Democrat or Republican.

It was, how are we?

How are we going to keep Vermonters safe?

But then we also found some key things to work on together.

We both advocated for ending the tax on military retiree pay in the state.

And since then, you know, I will give the governor some credit for most recently sending a letter to the Trump administration saying we need more refugees in Vermont.

We've got to grow our workforce and even helping with some of our work at the Vermont Afghan Alliance.

So I have no concerns that if reelected, I'll be able to pick up and work with Governor Scott or Governor Gignoux, and that they'll also realize the unique expertise that I have.

And they know that I can hit the ground running with this office.

>> Thank you.

And John Rodgers.

>> Yeah.

>> So another difference between my opponent and I that I have a long history.

I served in the legislature for 16 years as a Democrat, and I left the party when it was clear that the Democrats no longer care about the working class people.

Their policies are literally crushing them.

So I have a long history of being independent.

No matter what party I was part of, because I worked for Vermonters, and that's how I've run this office, open door, nonpartisan, helping all Vermonters, taking a lot of time helping people that probably didn't vote for me and may never vote for me.

But if they call my office and ask for help, they're going to get it.

I think another thing that bothers me a little is that when my opponent talks about working with Governor Scott, I think she overstates it a bit.

I think I've been in communication with them, and they've actually said that, and I'll leave it at that for now.

But Governor Scott and I have a weekly meeting with his leadership team and work very closely together.

So >> I think it's super important that he and I are there together to push a bat back and bring balance to the legislature that is still overwhelmingly controlled by the Democrats.

>> What's one thing?

This question is for both of you that you think the party that you represent now, the Republican Party for you, one thing that you think that they haven't been doing right, that you would advocate to change?

>> Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that they haven't got a great organization to support candidates and recruit candidates.

Their machine is not as big.

They don't have as many big funders.

So it's harder to raise money if you're a Republican.

Those are a couple of the big challenges.

You know, we still have this tension inside the party.

I think much like the Democrats have a tension inside the party between the moderates and the further left or the further right.

So there's the there's the people that like Trump and there's the people that don't like Trump.

And there's that tension and that creates some real problems when you're trying to get everybody behind a good candidate.

But there's that tension.

There's like that litmus test.

>> Thank you.

And Molly Gray, what's something that the Democrats aren't doing great.

>> On?

I mean, we we're still in a state that, you know, we struggle to welcome the next generation here, bring a generation back, bring a new generation to the state.

And I've always been a strong advocate for universal paid family and medical leave.

And unfortunately, it's been at times, the Democrats, including John Rodgers, who didn't support paid family and medical leave when Vermont had the opportunity to pass it.

And it's these types of super important policies for working families, a generation that's caught caring for kids and caring for a parent, or caring for both at the same time.

If we truly want to be the best place for workers, for working families, we really need to be united across the Democratic Party, across, you know, all of Vermont in making sure that we're meeting the needs of our communities and truly meeting the needs of workers in Vermont.

The candidates now have an opportunity to ask each other questions.

The questions should be no longer than 30s, and responses are limited to 60s, and there could be space for brief follow ups if I deem so fit.

All right, John Rogers, you're up first.

>> Go ahead.

>> Sure.

>> Miss gray, you talk constantly about your family farm, your campaign website also says you believe everyone has the right to live with dignity and ensure humane treatment.

But your family farm was at the center of serious labor violations around its treatment of H two, A migrant workers.

Why did you not speak out against the mistreatment of migrant workers on your family farm?

And did you use your influence to direct the investigation?

>> Wow.

>> You know, John.

Seems like kind of a new a new low here.

I'm on the ballot.

My experience, my background, my policies are on the ballot.

My family is not on the ballot.

So I'm going to give you an opportunity to ask a different question.

>> That's that's my question.

You you talk about your family farm throughout your campaign and on your website, you talk about being there.

There's tons of pictures about of you there.

And I'm just that's my question.

>> Yeah.

I guess, you.

>> Know.

>> I'm a little bit caught off guard here and I'm a little bit shocked, you know, I guess I'll say this Vermonters have a chance in this election to really think about the type of leadership they want in the state.

When I think about what we see nationally right now, I think about what I want for my kids.

I don't want a self-serving, self-interested bully who not only bullies his town and fails to follow the laws that he helped create.

You know, I don't want that in Washington.

I definitely don't want that in this state.

And yeah, I'm disappointed.

I think that there's all sorts of questions you could ask me today about policy decisions.

But going after my family, that's just a new low.

And we deserve better.

>> I would like to ask you to to follow up on one element of the question.

I think John Rogers had had asked you if you had used your influence as a former lieutenant governor in any way during this.

>> No, of course not.

No.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Wow.

Okay.

Well, I actually you know, my question for you is a little bit kinder.

It's really about your time as lieutenant governor.

And there's been so many different things that have happened all across the country, all across the state.

Vermonters have been suffering.

Vermonters have been, you know, really in the crosshairs of unlawful federal action.

And I'm just curious if you could go back and do anything again, what would it be?

What mistake have you made that you'd want to do differently?

And maybe you could tell us why?

>> Yeah.

I mean, quite frankly, I can't think of any mistakes.

I have spoke out against the Trump administration when I thought they were wrong, which has been plenty.

I stood with migrant workers when migrant workers were picked up up in Franklin County.

I went straight to migrant justice and said, hey, how can I help?

They said, well, sometimes a support letter from someone in leadership helps.

So I drafted a support statement.

I got 29 out of 30 senators to sign that.

And we were able to keep some of those migrants here.

And, you know, the big thing is my constituent work helping Vermonters every day.

That is my main focus.

And it has been throughout my history in the in the House in the Senate, there are so many Vermonters out there that need help.

And so many of them have told me, I haven't got a call back from my representative or my senator or the department or agency that I called.

And I have spent a huge amount of my time and my staff person as well, a huge amount of our time goes into helping Vermonters.

So I'm super proud of the office because we have taken what was a ceremonial office and turned it into one of the hardest working offices in state government.

And people literally come in and tell us that.

>> John Rodgers your turn to ask another question.

>> Miss Gray.

I'm releasing a TV ad tomorrow highlighting a range of state leaders, including a Democrat representative who's supporting my campaign.

This representative told me that you hung up on her when she gave you a courtesy call to tell you she was supporting me.

And then was wondering, did you call state Democratic leadership because they then bullied and threatened her to withdraw her support?

For me?

>> Do you want to tell me which leader are you talking about?

>> Which?

Which representative?

Yeah, my friend Representative Leanne Harpole.

>> Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for the question.

I welcome anyone to support you and anyone to support me.

We have the opportunity to give Vermonters a lot of choices in this race, and I respected Leanne Harpole calling me and saying she felt, unfortunately, a big obligation to support you, not because she wanted to.

And, you know, I, respect her for doing that.

And I think, you know, anyone who wants to support you should do that.

I guess I don't understand the point of the question.

>> Well.

>> I think if I might.

>> Yeah, go for it.

>> Go ahead.

>> If I might, you and others like to point out that President Trump bullies things.

And so that, you know, I have known Leanne since she was a baby.

She is a very close friend.

And so I think you already mis framed her feelings toward me.

I also helped her even though her and I don't align politically because I believe in her.

And I know she is a great and smart young woman.

And she told me that the leadership of the Democratic Party called her and bullied and threatened her to pull all of their support based on you calling May Hanlon in the Democratic Party.

So that's my firsthand experience.

And so I was just trying to get her position.

On why it was okay for her.

And May Hanlon to bully my friend for supporting me.

>> Understood.

How did you treat that call?

>> Yeah.

Had a very cordial conversation with Leanne.

She told me that she felt obliged to support you.

I said, well, of course I, you know, wish that you wouldn't.

But if you want to go ahead, we ended it on fine terms and can't speak to anything that happened after that.

But again, this to me just keeps coming back to like small, petty, personal things.

John.

When I feel like we really need leaders who are going to focus on the big issues facing our state, how we're going to bring down health care costs, how we're going to address the lack of affordable housing.

And, you know, you spoke earlier to fighting for the rights of Vermonters, but sometimes that's more than showing up at a random rally, you know, a one off in April of 2025 and writing a letter.

It's showing up every single day, making sure that Vermont Vermonters feel protected, that we're leading.

You know, we're we're leading by example.

You know, we're not bullying our town.

We're not bullying other candidates.

We're not bullying other people into providing support for us.

And I think that's what Vermonters deserve right now.

>> You have time for one more question, Molly.

>> I wanted to ask you last week, ask you about something you said last week in a debate.

You said that if you were governor of the state, you would have signed the bill that the legislature passed with near unanimous support from Republicans, Democrats and progressives, really putting into motion here in Vermont, the largest regulation, the most stringent regulation of large scale AI data centers, both the construction and operation and then what we saw was that Phil Scott vetoed it.

You said you would have signed it, but then the bill went back to the legislature, and you're all Republicans switched their vote.

I'm just curious, like, you're a Republican.

You had the ability to do a lot of work to ensure that Republicans stayed the course, voted their conscience.

Why didn't you use your platform or your voice to do anything?

>> I did have some conversations with Republicans, and they were going to support the governor.

I understand why the governor vetoed that.

I don't believe a large scale data center will ever come here again, driven by the policies of the last 20 years in the legislature, we have some of the highest electric rates in the country.

So I don't think they're coming here.

And then the other thing that I would go back to is act 250.

In our land use policy.

So not only is it stifling housing, is crushing our ability to draw good manufacturing jobs here, because tons of businesses and developers won't come here.

And I don't think data centers are going to come here.

So I understand Governor Scott's position.

I think he's probably right.

I am probably more of an environmentalist, and I very much worry about the heat.

They're putting out the electricity, they're using the water.

They're using.

So I am not a huge fan of large scale ones.

We already have data centers in Vermont, and we must have them.

It's something we need, but I don't think we need one that covers 26 acres.

>> I guess my question was, why didn't you use your platform platform to ensure that Republicans who helped this bill come across the finish line stayed the course?

Like, why wouldn't you use your voice to do that?

You had a choice.

>> Brief response.

And then we have to.

>> Yeah, as I said, I.

>> Mean, I talked with some Republicans.

They were they were supporting the governor.

I understand their position.

We're now going to return to some questions for all the candidates.

And please limit your answers to 60s.

We talked earlier about farming and the decline of certain parts of the agricultural sector.

So let's talk specifically about dairy.

Now, Vermont Edition has this monthly series that we've been doing called Town by Town, where we spend an hour learning about one of Vermont's 5252 municipalities.

And one of the common themes that's arisen from those conversations is the decline of the dairy industry.

Our most recent Town by Town episode was about Leamington in Essex County, and we spoke to a longtime select board member there named Joe Daley.

>> We used to have 7 or 8 farms that were good sized dairy farms at the time.

They're all of course, all of that's gone now.

There might be a few beef cows, and that's about it.

Very, very sad.

>> So my question to both of you is, should the state make significant financial investments specifically in our dairy industry to keep as many of the remaining dairies open as possible?

Molly Gray, it's your turn.

>> To go first.

Yeah, sure.

Thank you.

And grew up on a vegetable and dairy folks, folks and family still milking Jersey cows.

And what we've seen over the last year is already, I think close to 50 dairies have closed.

We may be down to about 200 by 2035.

And when we see the dairy industry hollow out in Vermont, we see that impact our schools, population growth, rural communities.

So I actually think that the moment we're in right now is we either stay the status quo or we work urgently to support farmers and modernizing farm diversification, remaining viable.

We should be working to help processing stay open in the state, and that should that could take state investment.

Making sure that we're working with farmers to ensure they're receiving a fair milk price, they can access regional and local markets, and that those production costs as they go up, making sure that Vermonters are receiving a fair price for their milk.

>> Thank you.

John.

>> Yeah.

>> Dairy has been changing for a long, long time.

And if you look at the history of dairy, you know, at one point they made farmers change over from milk cans to a bulk tank, right?

A whole bunch of them went out of business.

Unfortunately, we've lost a lot of our small farms.

I grew up on a small dairy because our federal government hasn't dealt with commodity pricing, and we're losing small farms across the nation, which is shocking to me.

And the fact that big corporations are buying up the land.

I want family farms raising my food, not big corporations, but we're still producing about the same amount because as some of those smaller farms go out of business, bigger ones buy them, buy up the land, take it over.

So we're still producing about the same amount of milk.

We're creating $5.4 billion in economic opportunity.

But one of the problems, like with the hood plant moving out, was because of the cost.

D.C.

our own Department of Environmental Conservation, was putting on them to handle their wastewater.

So until we deal with our land use policy, it's going to be very hard to get more processors here or to keep the ones that are already here.

>> So just briefly, that that should be the focus, not financial investments from the state.

>> It should be it should be all of the above.

>> Our neighboring states like New York, Massachusetts and Maine, all have financial incentives to help Vermonters.

Vermont, I mean, to help their farmers.

Vermont needs to do the same thing.

>> Thank you.

Let's talk small town government here.

Many Vermont small towns face a shortage of candidates to fill town government positions.

And I wonder if the lieutenant governor can support those communities in any direct way, especially ones that don't have full time staff members.

John Rodgers.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't think we're really my office doesn't have time.

I am straight out putting in huge weeks, but I do hear from municipal governments a lot.

And I also think one of the things the legislature has failed to do is fully fund the Ethics Commission, because I get complaints from individuals about their municipal government, and they've got nowhere to go.

And I also get complaints from municipal governments about other people in that office, and they've got nowhere to go.

I'll give you an example.

A lady in North Troy has a house, and only half of it is finished.

But the listers listed it as the whole thing finished.

So she's basically being double taxed.

She went to the listers.

They wouldn't deal with it.

She went to the select board.

They wouldn't deal with it.

So this lady is getting over taxed and there's nobody that has the authority to make them make the change.

And so I really think we need a strong ethics commission and it needs to be fully funded.

>> Thank you.

Molly Gray.

>> So often we see and I hear about this daily as I travel, the state, rural communities feeling like they're left behind and they don't have the same access to resources as larger cities and towns.

And I'd like to bring it back to housing for a moment.

Part of the reason I'm a big supporter of a Vermont Model code to really help towns that have been left behind by act 181 be able to update, update their zoning code.

A lot of towns don't have the administrative staff or expertise available to be able to do that.

So if it's a if it's something that the state can kind of help towns do and offer them a voluntary option to, to take on the model code so they can build more housing.

That's more objective and predictable.

I think that's a helpful thing, and that's why I advocate for that.

But then there's also a lot of infrastructure money that we know through the Chip act, and we want to make sure towns can access that.

And that means we have some of state government working with towns to make sure they can access all sorts of the resources we have.

You know, I think we have an obligation to do that, and I advocate for it as lieutenant governor.

>> Thank you.

>> Let's discuss the cannabis industry for a moment here, shall we?

Vermont has a legal cannabis industry, as we know, but there are concerns here about competition from the unregulated market and the high taxes on products for consumers.

I'm curious what you both think the state needs to do to make Vermont's cannabis industry more sustainable.

>> John Rodgers well, first off, the legislature made some pretty serious mistakes when they implemented the law, and I told them so when I was in the Senate, when it first came out of committee, the smallest grow was a 10,000 square foot grow, which no Vermonter can afford to set up.

Even even a couple thousand square feet can run into the millions of dollars.

And the legislature allowed a lot of big operations with a lot of money to come in and flood the market.

And they have put out hundreds of craft growers.

I wanted to see a craft business.

So both the legislature and the ECB have failed there.

But I also hear from people in the industry all the time who are getting pinched because they are being overregulated and nobody is trying to help them.

The people in the KBE don't seem to understand how much it takes to make business work and are making people do tons of record keeping and reporting that doesn't serve any purpose, but takes a huge amount of time and cost them a huge amount of money.

>> Well, on that note, I do think I should ask about the fine that you need to pay for growing more than 100 cannabis plants at a site where you didn't have permission to grow.

I wonder what you take away from that situation.

>> Yeah, it's just another place where.

So I was growing in a greenhouse that I had failed to put on the site map.

And instead of saying, oh, this isn't on the site map, we can help you get it on the site map, or you can move the plants over to where you have it on the site map would have taken ten minutes.

They chose to come down hard and and give me a fine.

And that's what I'm hearing throughout the industry.

Instead of having people that are helping them come in and succeed, they feel like the CCP is working against them.

>> Thank you.

And Molly Gray, how do we help make the cannabis industry more sustainable here?

>> Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I think it's not without question or consequence that we do have to have leaders who are going to help enforce the laws that they help draft.

And I'm glad we're talking about cannabis today.

I don't think a lieutenant governor should be growing 200 plants off the books.

I mean, it's just like, you know, it's it's not it's inexcusable.

But let's talk about what we can do to support the industry.

What I hear from individuals who are growing, and we've seen the industry grow in Vermont, was when I was lieutenant governor, we helped get the cannabis control board off the ground and appoint members.

But what I think we continue to see are challenges with vertical integration, more opportunities for farmers, for growers to produce, to process and bring to market, and to do that in a really safe way.

And I think there's opportunity in any state, but especially here in Vermont, to learn from what's working, kind of reassess what's not, and then go back to the drawing board in the year ahead.

And I think this is the opportunity to like, be like, how is this working?

And what can we do to support the industry and being viable moving forward and keep Vermonters safe in the process.

>> And brief follow up for you there, since you don't work directly in the industry, what exactly have you done to to understand these issues that are facing small growers?

>> Yeah.

Most recently I was up in the islands meeting with growers there and understanding like, again, what's working, what's not.

And for me, that's the role of lieutenant governor.

That's the unique opportunity that this office has to figure out.

Being out in community, meeting with farmers, small business leaders, health care workers, you name it.

What's working, what's not?

Where do we need changes to legislation and how can we how can state government work for Vermonters?

>> Thank you.

Yeah, well, we do have time for a lightning round here.

I'll ask you to keep your answers as short as possible, and I'll switch off who gets to go first for these ones, we will start with something that's going to appear on the ballots in November.

Prop three.

Do you plan to vote yes or no on prop three?

Vermont's proposed constitutional amendment protecting the right to organize and bargain collectively.

John Rodgers.

>> I will not vote for it, but if elect if voters vote for it, I will uphold the Constitution on all things.

>> Thank you.

Molly.

>> Absolutely.

It's personal.

My husband's been a teamster for 20 years, and I don't know how you can support workers without supporting workers rights.

>> Here's one.

What's one thing you admire about your opponent?

Seems like a nice time for that question.

Molly Gray we'll start with you.

>> That I learned recently that my opponent raises puppies, and I think that's really nice and gives them out to the community.

And of course, we both care about Vermont.

>> John Rodgers.

>> Yeah, I love hearing my opponent talk about helping her mom.

A family is deeply important to me, so when I hear about her helping with the care of her mom, it's something my mom's in her 80s too, and so that is really important for families to do.

>> You see, we're all best friends again.

Yeah, easy.

If you lose this race, what job are you going to try to get instead?

John Rodgers.

>> I'm going to do the same job I've been doing throughout my career.

Farming, stonework, excavation, snow, plowing.

I literally get up some mornings and snow plow before I come down to the office.

So I'm going to keep doing the same thing.

>> Thank you.

Molly Gray.

>> Yeah, my commitment to growing our workforce, helping to solve our demographic crisis, bring down costs is whether I'm in office or not.

I'll figure out a way to do that, just as I have over the last few years since being away.

>> Thank you.

>> Next question is what is the hardest job that you've ever had?

Molly Gray.

>> I mean, I'm a mom to a three year old, but no, I think I feel the squeeze that a lot of families in Vermont feel caring for a loved one, caring for mom, caring for a kiddo, and then really fighting for a place that I love and giving it everything I got.

I've got to make it better.

>> Thank you.

John Rodgers.

>> You know, the hardest thing for me is being a person who has done physical, physical work in farming and especially stonework.

Coming home at the end of the day and taking a shower and go into the meetings and doing all the things it takes to be a committed public service.

It's it's not something that everybody can do.

And I'm glad I've been able to.

>> What who excuse me?

Who is a politician, local or national, who you admire?

John Rodgers.

>> I'm going to stick with Phil Scott.

I mean, he, like me, grew up blue collar, has owned a bunch of businesses, knows what it's like to make it in the real world and sign the front of a check.

>> Molly Gray.

>> I think often about our congressional delegation right now and all they're facing and how hard they're fighting, so it can mix them all together.

I'd say I'd admire all three of them.

>> And last questions.

Talk gambling for a second here.

Should Vermont legalize more forms of gambling?

>> Molly Gray definitely not a top priority.

And I just want to note, I don't accept money from corporate or corporate PACs, including Kashi.

I know my opponent has a different view, but not a top priority for me.

>> John Rodgers.

>> I think my opponent has accepted some of that money over the past in her other campaign, so we'll we'll leave that for a later discussion.

But I'm not a big fan of gambling.

I think it takes money out of a lot of people's pockets who can least afford it.

>> Thank you.

Okay, time for closing statements from each of you.

The order for this was randomly determined before the show.

John Rodgers, you're going to start us off?

>> Sure.

Well, thank you so much for having us.

You know, I think we've each served two years in office, and I've shown how much can be done in that office.

And I've worked harder than I think anybody that I have known in that office, helping constituents, working with businesses, exploring how do we fix the land use policy and how do we get the cost of living here?

My opponent had two years, and she talks about a lot of the things that she wants to do, but I didn't see her do it when she was there before, and I think she used the office to run for a higher office.

I ran for this job because I have seen it for years as a platform that's been underutilized, and I've used it to its full potential to help Vermonters.

And I hope Vermonters will give me the opportunity to continue to do that, because there are so many Vermonters out there that need help.

And my office is super proud that we've been able to help so many of them.

>> Thank you.

John Rodgers and Molly Gray, it's your turn.

>> Thank you, Mikaela, and thank you to everyone for tuning in today.

It's been a pleasure to be here to answer so many questions and talk about the future of Vermont.

We have a real choice in this election.

I know what this office can be.

I know what Vermonters deserve.

I know what's at stake.

I've seen the cruelty and inhumanity of the Trump administration up close, helping to grow our workforce and our tax base and supporting Afghan refugees, resettle across Vermont.

I know the extreme economic pressures facing working families.

As a mom and caregiver to my mom right now, Vermonters have a choice.

They can stick with the status quo.

And folks who are observing or managing decline or invest in the next generation of leadership ready to lower costs, bring about health care reform and bring down costs, make housing more affordable for Vermonters, bring down property taxes, and make sure the rights of Vermonters are respected and protected every single day.

Today, I'm asking Vermonters for your vote.

And again, thank you for tuning in today.

>> Well, this concludes the general election debate for Lieutenant Governor on Vermont Public.

Many, many thanks to the two candidates for being part of this program today.

Molly Gray of Burlington, the Democratic candidate.

Thank you.

And the Republican candidate, current Lieutenant Governor John Rogers of Glover.

Thank you.

>> Thanks for having us.

>> You can join us this Thursday for the debate for Vermont's seat in the U.S.

House of Representatives with Representative Becca Balint Gerald Malloy and Adam Ortiz.

And you can submit questions for that by emailing Vermont Edition at Vermont Public dot org with the subject line Debate Question.

The Vermont Public Debate series is produced by Daniela Fierro and Holt Albee, with key production support from Frank Alwine Kyle Ambusk, Rick Barrett, Phil Edwards, John Ahrens, Ilya Papes, Andrea Laurion, Joey Palumbo, Dave Reiss Mike Dunn and Brian Stevenson.

I'm Mikaela Lefrak.

Thank you so much for listening and we'll catch up again.

>> Soon.