Kramer: Right. Since I first knew him, he always had this sort of science fiction part of his personality and as this Free University thing started to develop, he wanted to start as a historian teaching the future of his kind. He likes paradoxes. Basically at that point I told him, 'Newt, that's no paradox, it's just ridiculous. Why should a historian be teaching about the future?' But it was an interesting point of departure and it did begin to reflect some of his efforts to figure out what are the impacts of information technologies and what are the impacts on the way people live. It was about that time, that was '70, or '71, he ran into the Tofflers and that science fiction aspect of his personality began to take a pretty definite direction. But he was always interested in the film "2001- A Space Odyssey" or whatever it was. He always had this fascination with technology, the future, it began to take shape at that time.

Q: He is a very important political figure in the United States already. What's the most important thing we ought to know about him?

Kramer: Well, I think the most important thing is that he is a man who has spent most of his life preparing for public service. He is a man with a great deal of intellectual flexibility. I think to the extent that serious intellectuals, the media, and other people will engage him in intellectual and political debate, you'll find out that there is a much more complex man than most people think. I think that to the extent that he is denounced and repudiated and cast in a false light --that simply makes it more difficult for Gingrich to show the kind of leadership that I think he is capable of. And I say that because, as I mentioned earlier, for years, once his political ascension started, I have been bombarded by people wanting to know smut on Gingrich. That's the way these things were presented and I've never participated in them.

That is a level of political dialogue that is idiotic. I really think that one of the things that should be happening and will inevitably happen is that people should explore with Gingrich the direction in which this country will go in the future. And how we are going to get out of this crisis we're in. You can't do it purely with slogans but you also can't expect a man who has been, in some cases, portrayed very unfairly. I mean, I think it's ridiculous to portray Gingrich as particularly small-minded, particularly greedy, none of this is true. I mean, he's a fairly interesting character. He's certainly the intellectual peer of Bill Clinton or Lyndon Johnson or Calvin Coolidge, I mean, let's give the man a break.

And I think if that would happen then you would find that the quality of leadership and character that Gingrich brings to the table is at least up to the American average and maybe considerably above.

Q: What's your fondest memory of Newt from the days at Tulane?

Kramer: Oh, gosh, do I have a fondest memory? Now you surprised me with that one. Well, I don't know if this is my fondest or not. I told my mother this today. It was really funny. I had a daughter at that point and he had two daughters and they were all roughly the same age. My daughter was in between his and we would take them out trick-or-treating, Newt and I and these three little girls. Well, Newt would usually carry on the whole time with one of his lectures on the Battle of Verdun or, you know, the end of slavery in the United States or the economics of the computer industry. I've told my daughter --who is also kind of an accomplished historian of the sciences-- too bad she can't remember back to her early trick or treating years when she heard all of these lectures, 'cause I don't think Newt ever really knew what the kids were doing.

He was holding his lectures and they were out doing their trick-or-treating in New Orleans. I happened to think about that today, so I'll pass that story on as one of my favorites.