This happened by accident. . . . Jorge [made a trip to the US and met someone
who was involved,] and so that's how he began, then the rest of us, my other
brother and I. That was around 1978, 1979. . . .
The first transactions . . . were when I lived in Bogota. My role to receive a
commission for the business, in that I intervened as an intermediate. Later, I
did a few business deals directly.
Several businesses. . . .
I didn't pay a lot of attention to that, that because at that time, no one said
anything about anything. It was so easy . . . I didn't really pay much
attention to the fact of whether . . . it was illegal or not.
It wasn't properly accepted, but nobody ever said anything about it. And
since nothing dangerous or grave had happened, there were no repercussions in
getting involved. . . .
The business worked in the following way. The supply people would bring it
initially from Peru and Bolivia, and they would process it in labs here in
Colombia. From there, you would buy the cocaine and you would contract it with
someone to send it to the United States. Maybe it was through air or perhaps
some maritime way, and there someone would receive it. It's this person who
would receive it. That agent would be in charge of sending it other clients,
from California, from New York, from different states. The person in the
United States would be in charge of receiving the money and sending it back to
Colombia. That's the way it would work.
I had several ways of doing this. One was to buy the cocaine and to send it
the way I explained, and my partner would sell it there. The other way would
be to have your own lab where you would process it. You'd have your own way of
transporting it, a plane or a boat or something like that. You send it at your
own cost. Another way, you'd end up having to subcontract with other people to
do the different stages, like processing, transport, and the transfer of sales
to the person that you had contracted in the United States.
At the beginning, let's say that it cost 800 to 1,000,000 pesos a kilo, and you
would sell it for $30,000-$40,000. Add to that the cost of
transportation--around $10,000--and a few other expenses. That would leave a
profit of about 50 percent. But that was only depending on the demand, and of
course, on the supply. At the beginning that was the way it was. After some
time . . . there was still demand, and the profit was a lot less, because there
were a lot of people dedicated to this business.
The press really exaggerates a lot. Of course there were times where the deal
went really well, and the profits were huge. But the press really exaggerates
all of this, because a lot of things go wrong. . . . For example, if you
would try to transport something, you'd have to find a way of landing the plane
in an alternate landing strip, because in one strip there was authority. So
that would make things more difficult and it would take longer. Perhaps the
plane would have to go back or many things like that. Maybe someone in the
United States would get arrested or something, so then you'd have to change
everything. You'd have to change the organization.
In the beginning, none. Later on, I would say that 20 or 30 percent, something
Yes, little by little, it became more difficult because there were Coast Guard
planes with radar, and there were more controls in the airstrips. In general,
there were a lot of controls and that of course would make the operation more
Yes, of course. You'd have to be very careful and respect them very much
because, if the contrary, you'd be in a lot of problems.
At the beginning, there weren't a lot of people--that's why the business was so
good. There were 50, 60 people involved on the coast, in the south of the
country, in Bogota. But with time, it started proliferating, and a lot of
people got involved in this business.
I didn't understand it at all. I've never understood what they liked in that
substance, because I don't think it has any positive effects. I don't
understand why Americans liked it so much.
I don't appreciate it. I think it's a really stupid thing.
No, never, because I never found something that would interest me in this. I
don't think there's any sense in using this.
Yes, of course it surprised me very much. There's nothing good about it. I
don't see how anybody can get something good when they consume this, from my
way of seeing things.
I didn't pay too much attention to that, because I don't think there's any
sense to this. It might produce a different effect on them, but I just think
that it has nothing good about it.
Yes, of course. It was given publicity because it's consumed by people of high
status in society, and that gives you publicity. That made it actually sell
No. I think all drugs are harmful and anything that alters your normal states
is bad for you. So like liquor, like cocaine, like marijuana, any drug is
harmful. So I don't believe in what he said. I think it alters your
Yes, of course I thought of that same thing.
I didn't think this would cause so much harm and that's why I did it. At that
time I was also very young, and I was I didn't really think it could harm
anyone. But nowadays I realize the grave and harmful thing that drug is.
Carlos Lehder was a boy from high society . . . . And he was important because
he was one of the pioneers that started the traffic with this. He had his own
planes and very sophisticated ways of trafficking. And on top of that, he was
a kind of leader in this.
Something that also made Carlos famous and that made cocaine trafficking very
easy was an island that he bought in the Bahamas. That was called Norman's
Cay. That island was a sort of bridge for the planes for the trafficking of
drugs. Because of that, Carlos was well known. . . . It made things easy,
because it was a territory where the planes arrived freely. They would leave
the cocaine, and then some much smaller other planes would take the much
shorter flight to Florida. But remember, there were obviously other ways of
getting the cocaine across through commercial airlines, and camouflaged export
business. There were many ways of doing this.
The initial owner of Tranquilandia was Gonzalo Rodriguez [Gacha], the Mexican.
We had a part in that lab. It was very important because it was a bridge
between Bolivia, Peru and Colombia. You could very easily process the cocaine
there, because it was in the middle of a jungle where it was very difficult to
go. There was no other way to go but by plane.
That lab would produce the amount that you wanted. It could produce a thousand
kilos every two weeks, or perhaps even more. That was the capacity. . . .
My brother, Jorge, first met Carlos. Jorge and Carlos both like airplanes a
lot . . . Carlos would come a lot to Medellin, so that's how I met him. . . .
I never worried about asking him that question. Carlos was a very adventurous,
curious man. He was an adventurer. . . .
I met Pablo Escobar because I lived in Bogota. They loved car racing. They
would go to Bogota for the races, then they would go to my restaurant. That's
where I met him. Later on, when I came to live in Medellin, I saw him a few
I never had any business directly with Pablo Escobar. . . . My brother Jorge
did do a few deals with them.
That's a name given by the authorities or the press, because in itself, there
was no group or association that was "the cartel of Medellin." That was what
they called the traffickers from a certain place. From the people from
Medellin, they would say the cartel of Medellin, the ones from Cali, the cartel
of Cali. . . .
No, never. That was something the press used. I never heard any of us say
the cartel of Medellin or the cartel of Cali. . . .
. . . That these things weren't true. There were groups of people that were
friends of course, but . . . it wasn't an association or anything like that.
So that's a term that was something that was coined by the press, and everybody
started using it. Everybody still uses to this day.
He was a person that was so ambitious. He wanted to dominate and have the
power of all the business. Apart from the business, he wanted to be involved
in politics and in managing political issues in the country. So he pretended
to be the head or the person that would rule everything at the moment.
Yes, it was true. . . . It was true, but not everybody submitted to what he
said. A lot of people left here, and others were never in agreement with him.
He was chief in a certain way, but he wasn't an absolute chief.
He wanted everyone to do it his way. And he wanted to be the one who ruled in
the business, the total boss of the whole business. The person that would not
submit to what he said was considered his enemy. . . . That's why a lot of
people left Medellin.
My brother Jorge was closer to Pablo. He tried to intervene so that things
would be done in a non-violent manner. But Pablo didn't accept that very much.
My brother and I were not very close to him. My brother simply tried to
mediate when there was a war with the ones in Cali, so the war would finish and
there would be no more violence or any more of that. When we had all given
ourselves up, Jorge was the one who managed to convince Pablo to give himself
up when he did. It was Jorge who mediated this, who convinced Pablo to give
himself up . . .
There was the Mexican. It was said he was one of the richest. . . . Pablo
Escobar was said to be the richest. But it's very difficult to know how rich
each of them was.
No, never. That's not something you need to discuss among yourselves. There
were rumors that such and such is very wealthy, but nobody would know how much
each would win or not.
There were meetings to make business but that was different from discussing
problems. For all of us to get together like with the Mexican, yes, to make a
business, yes, that did occur. . . . But not with a group of eight or ten
people gathered in the business, no.
It's a business like any business. It's a very profitable business, but it's
prohibited. If it wasn't prohibited, it would be like any business of selling
liquor or cigarettes or something of that manner.
. . . If that business didn't exist, those entities would not exist. So one is
a consequence of the other. . . .
I think so. Yes, of course.
I don't know why they didn't. . . . If they were dedicated to controlling a
very specific person, they can manage it. I don't know why they didn't do it.
. . .
You'd have to ask them that. . . . The business became so big and so complex,
like everything. As things get bigger, they are harder to control.
Yes. With sufficient collaboration from the Colombian authorities, they could
have managed that. . . .
That business undoubtedly has brought a lot of money to this country. But of course it has also been detrimental, because it has so many ramifications--violence, and terrorism, and some. But it's true that a lot of money has entered the country. I think that's had great importance in the economic sector of the country. . . .
That became very popular, very well known, and so there came a moment when
authorities destroyed it. They confiscated it. It was well known that it
existed, that it was a very large lab through which a lot of coca paste
entered. You didn't just process coca there. It was also a bridge for other
coca that was processed in other labs, because the airstrip was very large and
very good for the airplanes. . . .
We had information of what the authorities were going to do. The Mexican knew,
because he had informants. He told us that they were going to confiscate it,
and so he asked what strategy should we use--should they repel the attack, an
invasion there in Tranquilandia, with arms? Because he had armed people there.
They decided no, that since we didn't really like any of the violent things
with arms, and we decided that we should do nothing. And that's what happened.
. . .
No. Each of us simply kept on going through our own ways, and that finished. .
. . Each of us on our own kept doing our own thing. We never did anything
together as a society again.
Setting this whole place up cost a lot of money, so we lost a lot of money.
Yes, it was serious, because to set something like this up, in the middle of
the jungle, is incredibly expensive. We might have lost around $5 million or
$10 million, something like that. The airstrip and all the infrastructure that
we had there was very expensive to keep. I couldn't calculate exactly, but of
course we lost a lot of money there.
At the moment, it affected us. But there were laboratories all over the place.
There were a lot of people who could sell the cocaine that was ready. So we
stopped processing the cocaine directly, and we had to buy the cocaine through
third parties that were producing. . . .
He was the minister of justice of the time. For narcotraffickers, he was like
any minister of justice. The government of Belisario Betancur started the
persecution against drug trafficking because of Lara Bonilla's death.
That was from Pablo Escobar. He made the decision. He didn't talk to any of
us. He simply thought, he had ideas and he carried them out. At that time,
since he was involved in politics, surely, maybe Bonilla was an obstacle for
Pablo or something.
. . . I heard the news and I thought, "Oh, this is grave news." Because you
can't stand up to the government and society in that way. I think it was a
grave mistake to kill him, or anyone else, of the people that were killed.
No. I simply heard it on the news, and a few days later the persecution
against us started. And that's when we left for Panama. We were there for a
while. From Panama, I went to Brazil. I was there for a while, and then after
that on to Equador. When the tension started easing after a while, I came back
Panama is a country that's very easy to get to from here. You don't need a
visa or anything. It's very comfortable there. We decided to go there because
it's close and easy.
My brothers and I. Rodriguez was there and Pablo Escobar.
That was a meeting with Pablo Escobar, and Jorge my brother, with the
ex-president, Alfonso Lopez, and with the prosecutor general. They wanted to
find a way to end the business--a decorous way of getting out of this so we
would get out of this business. But that didn't prosper.
I don't exactly remember what happened in that meeting, because that was a
meeting that Pablo Escobar had with the prosecutor and ex-president. They
offered to end the business and they offered to end all of that.
Because the persecution was very high. We could just start to see that things
were getting worse day to day.
I don't know. That was a matter of the government of Belisario Betancur. . .
. . . Since the pressure after Lara Bonilla, the persecution was so hard
against us and our families. We thought it was a very dark future for us, so
we decided that the best thing would be to leave the business alone. We
proposed this to ex-President Lopez, but that had no answer. . . .
Extradition was something that we thought was very grave for us. If someone
would extradite you, that would be like being buried alive. We respected and
feared extradition . . . very much.
Several proposals were sent so that extradition would end for drug trafficking
to end, but that never came to pass. There was a pool of lawyers that was
working to legally stop extradition. But that also didn't work. . . .
I don't agree with extradition. If there was a justice system towards
Colombians in other countries, where the sanctions weren't so big and drastic
against Colombians, it would be fine to pay three or four or five years, in a
dignified manner. But to spend your life in prisons that are high security and
chained up--I think that violates your human rights.
Then they should also punish those who sell liquor, because it's just as or
more dangerous than cocaine, but it's legal. It's just a manner of seeing
Narcoterrorism was started because of the extradition. As everyone knows,
Pablo Escobar employed all sorts of methods, which, of course, I never believed
in or agreed with. Because in that narcoterrorism, the great majority people
that died were innocent. Those people had nothing to do with anything. So I
think that's a grave error.
The extraditables were all of us who had indictments in the United States,
including us, the Ochoas.
No, no. We were never involved in violent acts. As I was saying before, the
violence was generated by Pablo Escobar. But we were never in agreement with
those terrorist acts. . . .
We were never involved or in agreement with any terrorist act, because our
policy has always been to find a way to solve things in a non-violent manner so
that no one is hurt--talking and negotiating only. Nevertheless, there were
people that were in agreement with violence, and they would commit these
terrorist acts. And the extraditables would take credit for that. We were
extraditables, but we never had to do with "the extraditables." I like this
question because it's important for you to understand.
At that moment, simply, everything was just starting, and we never believed
that it would come to the point of narcoterrorism violence. Jorge's policy was
always to conciliate, to mediate. He was with Pablo Escobar but that didn't
mean that he was part of the extraditables or believed in this. What he was
trying to do was mediate, like everyone knows.
Yes, we thought of that but it wasn't something that was convenient for us--for
lot of reasons I don't want to go into.
What I know about Barry Seal is that he was a pilot that transported cocaine.
And he had some inconveniences with the DEA and he started to work with them.
And later on he was assassinated.
Mine, no, never. He transported cocaine for several people--Pablo Escobar,
Gonzalo Rodriguez, Jorge my brother. But for my own cocaine, I never had any
accounts with Barry Seal. I only met him once, I saw him only once in my lifetime. . . . When we were in Panama, he came to Panama to talk to Jorge my
brother, with Pablo Escobar and with Gonzalo Rodriguez. And I saw him perhaps
three to five minutes. That was the only time in my life I met him. I never
talked to him then or anything. . . .
No, at no moment did he protect us. He didn't even know that we were there.
As far as I know, he had nothing to do with the drug trade.
I can't really say, because I wasn't there. There's a saying here that if any
of us have problems with the US, Noriega is the best lawyer you could have,
because if you declare against Noriega, you're free. Perhaps Carlos Lehder
didn't have another option but to do that. . . .
The Sandinistas offered through some people to cooperate to traffic drugs from
Nicaragua. And that was something they tried to do precisely when we were in
Panama. Personally, Pablo Escobar and Gonzalo Rodriguez went to Managua to try
to start a new business. That was done through Barry Seal precisely. But that
failed, because Barry Seal was already "twisted," as they say vulgarly. . . .
With the Sandinistas, not much was done. That was a failure because it was
done directly through someone with the DEA--Barry Seal. . . .
That's not something I know of. I heard that they were involved. . . . But I
never knew about it personally.
It wouldn't surprise me. In this business, if a person hasn't gotten into the
business, it's because they haven't been able to.
Through Cuba, we made several deals with officials from the Cuban government.
But they were doing things on their own. I think the Cuban government had
nothing to do with it. They got involved on their own. . . .
That was a very small thing because that was something they were doing on their
own. They turned their backs to the government, and since in Cuba everything's
so controlled, it wasn't something easy to do. So it didn't succeed.
The Mexicans have always been involved, but in a bigger way starting from1984,
1985. . . .
Through Mexico was very easy because the border of Mexico with the US is very
large. So the cocaine went from here to Mexico, and then there were those in
charge of finding ways to move it through the United States. That border is
very huge and it's probably uncontrollable.
. . . The drug trade through Mexico increased, because in Florida they started
too many controls. It was very difficult through there. It was a lot easier
through Mexico because there weren't that many controls. . . .
. . . Because they weren't doing any business without the money being given in
advance. So whether the business succeeded or not, they had the money.
Without the money up front, they wouldn't move a finger. So it was very easy
for them. But for us, we had to make great investments, not only to sell, but
to send the drugs to Mexico. We'd give them the money up front, and pay its
shipment across the border. So they would keep the money, and because of that,
they managed to get so much money.
Some charged a percentage in cocaine. I didn't have to do that. But I've
heard of that.
Yes, possibly and also because they have nothing to lose. Before the shipment
has even left, they already have the money in their pockets. . . .
That's a false accusation, because I never gathered with Max Mermelstein to
discuss a single business deal, because I never had a business deal with him.
The only business I had was with Rafico, and I never had any problems with him
money or anything. . . . And with Max Mermelstein I never had any meetings
about drug trafficking at all.
That's also not true, because I never brought ether from the United States.
The people that were in charge of getting ether were the ones . . . directly in
charge of the labs. I never imported or brought ether, not even contraband.
That was done by the people in the labs.
Whatever is said by Max about the business that I've had with him is fake. I
think he is the biggest liar in the world, and he is fantasizing. I never had
any business with Max Mermelstein. I never had anything to discuss with him,
because I saw Max Mermelstein two or three times in my life. I never talked to
him because I never had anything to talk to him about. . . .
We were tired of having to run. We were afraid we would get killed. We wanted
a normal life with our family, to dedicate ourselves to our businesses, to our
kids, and once and for all to finish with the headache, that nightmare that we
All of us won. The government won in, the sense that they didn't have to
persecute us anymore. And we won also because we solved our problem. There's
no winners or losers. Everybody was a winner, when there is a settlement like
It works in part, because people are afraid of extradition. But even with
extradition, or the death penalty, the business will never end.
I got really sad, because I don't like when anyone is extradited, so I got very
sad with his extradition.
None of us like that anyone dies. I would rather that he had a different
ending, that he would have corrected all of his errors, that his ending
wouldn't have been the death in that way. . . .
I think that if they manage to solve their problem that they have, and if they
can pay their sentence, they will be fine in the eyes of society and like us,
they can enjoy their families and lead a tranquil life.
The difference is that we were never involved in wars or in problems with
violence of any sort. And they were stuck in the middle of a very violent war
against Pablo Escobar.
We were never involved in violent acts. Bribing was something that happened.
In order to traffic, you've got to pay certain authorities, so that was
something that just had to be done. But in terms of violent things, we were
Let's say we would pay for information or for flights to leave an airport. It
was sort of low-level, or middle-level payments--never high-level payments. We
would contribute with propaganda for the liberal governments.. . . We made
campaigns for the liberals because we are liberal. But we never gave cash to
any politician. . . .
When I was blocked in many ways, and the family was being persecuted, and the
kids weren't being accepted into the schools--when we started to do badly in
the social sense.
I think it's a war that's very uneven, because while there is a demand, there
will always be a supply. They can put as many controls as they want. The only
way to get out of this is to legalize this business, the same way that the
liquor business is legalized.
We'd have to make campaigns educating people, as is done with liquor and
tobacco, warning them that it's detrimental. That would be one way. Once that
was legal, it would no longer be a business, and therefore it would end, or it
would be greatly diminished, that business.
I can't really tell you because I never really added it all up but it was a
considerable amount. . . . Maybe $20 million, $25 million. Around that. I
couldn't tell you exactly.
Probably not, but the business that I have now is a very good business, which
is my horse business, something that I've always had, I think I would have even
made more than that. . . .
Possibly one month, yes. But not consistently, because I didn't consistently
have success in each deal. . . .
I wish that was true. They're wrong about that. They're really wrong about
I think it's a great country. The United States is a great country. Nowadays,
I really feel bad I cannot be there, or travel there, because I really love the
US. It's a very beautiful country, a very large country, very free, with a lot
of opportunities, with a lot of contrasts, and because I like it a lot.
In part they are right, and all of us commit errors in their life. They also
commit mistakes. They have this country full of arms and of other things. The
ingredients, for instance, to make cocaine comes from the US, and the dollars
to make the cocaine comes from the US, so they are also guilty of a lot of
things. We can't judge each other. All of us make mistakes.
I know that the guerrillas--I'm not quite sure what group--control the
production of the coca plant. . . . That's not a secret, everybody knows
that. It's not just something I would say. The government says it, the
Americans say it, they admit it, and everybody knows that. They are
practically the owners of that business nowadays.
Before, the business was in a few hands. Now the business is in the hands of a
lot of people, a lot of partners, and individual persons and groups. The
business is a lot more complex nowadays, and day after day, it will become more
It is more difficult to detect who traffics, because nowadays, the people that
are involved in this they don't have a profile. They are not known by anyone,
so it's more difficult to know who is involved or not than before. . . .
That's why it's more complex and more sophisticated. The proof of it is that
the US is still has cocaine coming in great quantities, as does Europe and all
of the world. . . .
The war on drugs as it's being waged is a failure. They have partial success,
but generally it's a failure, because it's completely impossible to contain . .
. as long as there's the demand, as long as there is great profit in the
The DEA could have stopped the business, when it was much smaller and in the
hands of a few people. Now it's in the hands of too many. It's a lot easier
to control a few than a lot.
Being involved in this has changed me a lot. I've had time to think about all
of this. I've matured. I've seen all of this in a very different way than I
used to. I was very young. I didn't really think of the consequences of what
I was doing. Nowadays, I realize, and I see things in a very different
Before I was what I am now, I was a trafficker. I was doing bad to society,
committing crimes, and now I don't. That was before.
I am a normal person. I'm a good person, I'm a father, I'm hard working, I'm
honest. I've reinserted myself in society. I feel very good now.. . .
I really regret having been involved, because as I said, at that time, I didn't
think it was anything bad. It was like contraband, like anything else. I
didn't think that it would have the consequences that it had, for my family,
for myself, and for the rest of the world.
I would tell them that all of us make mistakes. It's the same error for the
one that sells like the one that consumes. And they should think about what
they do before they get into it. Like someone that drinks and becomes addicted
to alcohol. . . . Anything that causes you harm is bad. And so before you get
involved in trafficking or consuming, you should really think about it twice.
. . .
I think that's a completely false statement. If that's true, show us the
proof. We are the ones that are least interested in being involved in this
business after having solved that problem, knowing the consequences that might
come out of all of the trafficking.
This is very worrisome. The possibility of someone giving testimony against us
in order to save themselves from a sentence is very worrisome, because that's
the way of doing things in the US--to accuse someone to save yourself from a
harsh sentence. So that worries us greatly. But we have the certainty, and on
our behalf, we have a clean conscience that for us all of this is finished,
that we are in a new life, a different life, trying to work hard honestly and
Let's not call it a crime. Let's say an error that was committed, and that was
to traffic in drugs. . . . like selling liquor illegally. This is a very
subjective thing. It's perception, because liquor is equally damaging, or even
more harmful. Just look at the amount of people that die, and the family
tragedies that the liquor causes on a daily basis throughout the world. So
it's the same if someone produces liquor and sells it, they're harming the
person. To those that are consuming, that's the way it is.
. . . Jorge and Fabio, like me, were dedicated to drug trafficking. But that
has changed. It's now different. That was a different stage in our lives.
They are no longer involved in that business, and haven't been for a very long
time. We were sentenced, and spent five and a half years in jail, and now we
are living a normal life--a very different life.
Jorge was the most well known . . . He was the one that was most visible, but
he wasn't properly a leader. We were all the same.
Because I wanted to clear some doubts. I decided to give this interview
because I thought it was convenient, because I could clear up things; a lot of
doubts, and to show the rest of the world that life is different. Life teaches
you things every day.
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