the child terror
Interview Transcript
see below for text
Names of all children and their families have been changed.

This is the full unedited transcript of the interview Dr. Laurie Braga conducted with Leslie, (not her real name), the prosecution's primary child witness in the Harold Grant Snowden case.

How old are you, L.?

Four.

Four? When will you be five?

In September.

So pretty soon, huh? It's almost your birthday.

What are you going to get for your birthday?

I'm going to get clothes.

Yeah? Is that good?

Yeah.

I like the outfit that you're wearing. It's pretty. You were playing with those dolls before; huh?

Oh-oh. This one came undone again. Let me put this one back together. You take this--

You put--you tucked his shirt in; huh?

(Nodding head.)

Did Mommy and Daddy tell you why you were going to come here today?

(Nodding head.)

What did they say?

They said we have to come.

Uh-huh. Did they tell you why? What did they tell you you were going to come for?

Because something bad when I stayed somewhere--

Yeah.

--or babysit me and S., and then someone was bugging us.

Uh-huh.

And then his name is Grant, and then he bugged us all the time.

He did? What did he do?

He hit us, and that ain't nice. He pushed us down when we were going to go skating, and also, when C. and I--I was holding him when we were skating, and he pushed me down and C. Me and C. cried and cried.

You did? And when you--now, you--when you used to go to babysitting there, that was a while ago; right?

(Nodding head.)

Did you go there any time recently?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Did you go there a little while ago, too?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

But you went there for a long time when you were little; and what kind of things--when you would go there, what kind of things would you do?

Play with my brother, and he knocked the house down.

Uh-huh. Before your brother was born, what did you do? Did you go there before your brother was born?

(Nodding head.)

Did you play with toys, or did you watch television? What would you do when you would go?

Watch television, then Grant turned off the TV and I cried and cried.

You did? You cried and cried?

He turned it off.

Why did you cry?

He turned off the TV.

Did he do anything else?

(Nodding head.)

Did he do anything that made you sad?

(Nodding head.)

Could you tell me what he did?

When he picked me up, he dropped me on the floor.

He dropped you on the floor?

It was a hard floor in the kitchen.

Did you fall and hurt yourself?

(Nodding head.)

Did anything else happen that upset you?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

No?

Look what happened.

I know. The pants--you know why?

Why?

Because a lot of little children come in here, and they talk to me about things that happened that make them sad, and they take the clothes off the dolls to show me, and so they keep taking them off, and so, after a while, they started to tear. I have to get somebody to sew them.

Some of them.

Yeah.

This way it stays tucked in.

This one--let's pretend that this--let's see. Where's the lady doll? Where did she go? Oh, there she is. Would you bring her over here?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. Let's pretend that this is Janice [Grant's wife]; okay? and this is you. This is L. I know she doesn't have blonde hair like you, but we'll just pretend, okay? We'll pretend that this is L., and you're going to the babysitter, to Janice's and Grant's okay? Can you just pretend and show me like a story about how--what would happen when you would go to Janice's and what kind of things you would do?

(Nodding head.)

Okay.

This one--okay. Pretend like I'm a baby.

Okay. I'll pretend like you're a baby.

Okay. Pretend like I'm walking.

Okay.

Knock-knock.

Come in.

Hi.

Hi. How are you, L.?

Fine.

What should we do today?

You can go to the store, and then Grant can watch me. If he does bad things, I'll tell you.

Okay. Well, bye-bye. I'm going to the store. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Okay. Now I've gone to the store. Now Grant is going to watch you; right?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. Well, show me what you and Grant do while he watched you.

The doll fell down. Can I watch TV? Yes.

Okay. So you're going to sit and watch TV; right?

(Nodding head.)

Okay; and then what would you do? Would Grant sit and watch TV with you?

(Nodding head.)

Did he sit close to you or far away?

He was laying down.

He was laying down? Was he laying down in the TV room or the bedroom?

The bedroom.

The bedroom? And where were you?

I was right here.

You were watching TV, and then what would happen?

And then Grant came up--

Uh-huh.

--and shut off the TV.

Shut off the TV?

"Whaa, whaa."

Why did he shut the TV off?

Because he can't sleep. Now, you have to get her, and then I'll tell her, and then--

Okay, but before--and then after he shut off the TV, and then what did he do then afterwards? Did he talk to you? Did he sit and play with you? What would he do then?

That's all. Then he has to get her when she comes home.

Okay. I'm home from the grocery store.

You know what happened? Grant--when I was watching TV, he turned off the TV, and I cried and cried.

You did?

Uh-huh.

Did he do anything else besides shut off the TV?

No.

Did you feel very sad because he shut off the TV?

Yes.

Yeah? Well, did he play with you?

No.

Did he try to make you feel better because you were crying?

No.

No, he didn't? Well, I'm sorry.

And do you know what else he did?

What else did he do?

He got to get mad at him, and then--and then--and then you got to walk her home.

Who's going to walk her home, Janice?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. So Janice gets mad at Grant and says, "Grant, you shouldn't have shut that TV off," is that what?

(Nodding head.)

And then she says, "Okay, L. Let's go home." Is that right?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. Let's go.

Now you have to talk to him first.

Oh, well, didn't I talk to him and say, "Grant, you shouldn't have done that"?

No, you didn't.

No? What should I talk to him about?

"You shouldn't shut the TV off, so she will not cry."

"Grant, you shouldn't shut the TV off, so she will not cry," and what does Grant say?

He says, "I won't do that anymore."

"Well, I won't do that anymore, Janice." "Well, okay. Make sure you don't."

Okay. Now you have to walk me home. My home is right here.

Okay. Well, let's go home now, L.

'Bye.

'Bye.

I'll be there in a minute--in the morning. Now, she goes to sleep.

Now, she goes to sleep?

Now, there is their bed.

Uh-huh; and what about them? Did they go to sleep? Did they go back home and go to sleep?

No.

No?

Now you have to wake up. It's morning time. I will get her ready.

Get up. It's time to go back.

Get your people up.

Up. Up. Let's get up. Get up, and get dressed. Okay, it's time for the children to come. When you would go there babysitting, was Grant always there?

(Nodding head.)

Was he there sometimes or all the time?

All the time.

All the time?

Hi. Wait. I've got to walk--knock-knock.

Come in.

I came home--I came here.

Oh. Good to see you. What shall we do today?

We might do the same thing we did yesterday.

Oh, okay. Well, should I go shopping today?

Yeah.

Okay. Well, I'm going shopping.

Be sure to get some chocolate milk.

Oh, okay. 'Bye.

'Bye.

I'll see you later.

Right.

Okay. Now, she went shopping. Now, was Grant watching you, or was he sleeping?

He was watching me, sitting down by the TV.

Was he sitting close to you or far away?

Close to me.

Close to you, okay. Does he--

I'll stay here.

Was he sitting here?

Watching TV.

Watching TV, and what did you watch?

Cartoons.

Cartoons, and did he watch with you?

In the room.

And when he would sit next to you, did he sit far away like this or did he sit close to you like this?

Like that.

Like that, and did he put his arm around you, or did he put his arm here? Where does he put his arm?

Here.

Like that, okay. Did he say, "Sit in my lap," or did he say, "Sit over there?"

"Sit in my lap."

"Sit in my lap?" Okay.

Like this, so he can watch TV like that.

OK, and were you sitting up or lying down?

Like that.

Like that, okay; and then what happened?

And then--and then you come in, and then I told, "Grant didn't do anything" when you come home.

Okay. Well, I'm coming home now. Okay. "Hi. How are you?"

"Fine."

"Did you have a nice time?"

"Yeah."

"And did Grant make you sad?"

"No."

"Oh, I'm glad." Okay.

Now you have to walk me home.

Okay, let's go home.

Thank you.

'Bye, L.

'Bye.

I'll see you tomorrow.

All right.

All right.

And pretend like I asked my mommy if I could stay there forever.

Stay where forever?

Grant's house.

Did you ask your mommy, could you stay at Grant's house forever?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah? Okay. And then what did your mommy say?

She said, "Okay."

Okay? All right. Did you want to stay at Grant's house forever?

(Nodding head.)

Did you like it?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah?

All right. Now we have to get a little girl, because that's how you start it. We can have her.

Okay. Who's that?

That's going to be the girl with them.

What's the girl's name?

G..

G.? Okay.

And then my name is L.

Right. Okay. Now what shall we do?

I'll ask my mommy. My mommy--this is my mommy here.

Okay.

"Could I go over Grant's house to say over there?" "Yes." "Okay, I need all my clothes." Okay. Now I got the big suitcase. I'm walking back there. "Hi."

"Hi."

"You have a drawer to put my clothes in?"

"Okay. You want to put your clothes in a drawer?"

"Yeah."

"Okay."

"Okay. I want to put my clothes in this drawer," and I sleep right on this.

Okay.

Or sit on this.

Okay.

Sleep like this, okay. Now, let's change the--take the clothes off.

Take the clothes off, okay.

I know how to take care of people's things.

Huh?

I know how to take care of people's things.

You do? That's a good thing to know.

She's going to sleep.

She is? Does she wear her panties when she goes to sleep?

(Nodding head.)

Oh, okay.

Okay. Now the rest. Okay, now Grant is going to sleep.

Uh-huh; and where does he sleep?

He sleeps just like me, right by me.

Okay.

And he takes this off.

He takes that shirt off? Okay.

That's how my daddy is like.

Your daddy has hair on his chest?

(Nodding head.)

And how about Grant? Does Grant have hair on his chest?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah?

He has this, too.

Hair under his arms, too?

(Nodding head.) He takes this off, too.

Does he take that off, too? Okay. Go ahead.

I know how to take--

You know how to take the pants off?

I know how to put them back on, too.

All right.

Now, he's going to go take his makeup off. We put makeup on him.

Okay.

I have to go to the bathroom.

Okay.

Don't laugh.

I won't laugh.

Oh-oh. I fell down. Okay, now--

Okay.

The girl, she takes hers off.

Okay.

All of them do. The clothes can go right here. She sleeps in the living room.

Oh, all right.

She takes hers off. She has to go to the bathroom, too. Everybody has to go. Hair down here.

Uh-huh.

Done. Whoa. Not again. I fell down again.

Oh-oh.

Everybody--now, everybody has to go to the bathroom.

They do?

He has to go to the bathroom again. Oh well. Flush. He's falling down. Okay. She does--no hair.

No hair; huh?

That's the sister. Okay. Now, she's done.

Is she a little girl or a lady?

She's a little girl.

How can you tell?

Because. Okay. Now, the rest of them, they're going to play.

Were all those people at Grant's, or were you just pretending?

All of them were at Grant's.

Really? Is that true, or just pretend?

True, because once I saw everybody coming over.

You saw a lot of people over there, huh?

(Nodding head.)

But when you saw all the people coming over, did they take off their pants, really, or are you just pretending now?

Really.

Really?

Wait, I'm just pretending.

Just pretending, okay.

Where is the shirt with the--

I think you put it down right there.

No, that's Grant's.

That's Grant's? Well, let's see now. Look. I think there are two shirts here. Look, one of them is his, and one of them is Grant's; right?

(Nodding head.) Now, he gets to go to the bathroom. Hair. He has to go now. He has to go--flush.

You keep falling, huh?

I can't stand up good. Put him here. Now, we're going to undress him. It's a him, 'cause him's are like this--no, it's a girl.

Is it a girl?

Yeah, because, like these--because you can tell.

How can you tell?

Because from these. If this is a man--

Yeah.

--it has these.

Hair on the chest?

Yeah.

Do boys have hair on their chests?

Only the boys. She was--this is a girl. Girls wear jeans.

Yeah, sometimes.

I do every time.

Do you, every time?

Yeah. Then my mom says, "When in the world--" when we go up north, we're going to live with my grandma.

You are?

(Nodding head.) Where is the shirt?

I think it fell down. Did it? Yeah, it fell down over there behind. You see it?

I'll put this over there. He has to go to the bathroom, too. I think it's a she. I think it's a boy. It's a boy.

It's a boy. Oh, okay.

I didn't know that. This boy doesn't have no chest. Some people don't have no hair on their chest.

Well, I think boys don't have hair on their chests.

Some boys.

Only men do when they get to be bigger. Like little girls have--what do you call these?

Boobies.

Boobies. See, girls don't have boobies, and then ladies get boobies.

Real ones.

Yeah.

Okay. Now she sleeps--take off her clothes. These are Grant's. These are Grant's, and these are him's.

So when you went to Grant's house, did Grant take his clothes off?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah?

(Nodding head.)

Did he take off his pants or his shirt or both? What did he take off? You can tell me. You can tell me.

If I take the panties, will you laugh?

No, I won't laugh.

Now she goes in the bathroom to take them off. This is a boy. He takes everything off, so then everybody takes everything off.

Yeah?

There. I can't get these off. When are we going to talk--I don't know when we are going to talk.

Well, you want to talk now?

No. With that man.

What man?

That man who we're going to talk with.

Well, you're going to talk to me. Can you talk to me, instead of the man? Would that be okay?

Yeah.

Okay. Can you tell me, when you would go to Grant's house--now, this isn't make-believe. This is real, okay?

(Nodding head.)

Did Grant take his clothes off?

(Nodding head.)

Would you tell me what would happen when Grant would take his clothes off?

He went to sleep.

He went to sleep?

(Nodding head.)

Would you go to sleep, too?

I would be laying right by him.

Right by him, and did you have your clothes on or off?

Off.

Off, okay.

This is a girl.

I know it's a girl. We're pretending that that's L.

I don't--I don't rip stuff.

I know you don't. You're very careful.

This might be ripped, too.

No. I think that's the way it is. Okay. Now, let me ask you a question, okay? We're pretending. Let's just put these dolls aside just for a minute okay?

Okay.

Okay. We'll just put them here and let them sleep, and this girl, too.

Okay.

Put them over here, and I'm just going to put these down here. They can sit down here.

Pretty soon, I'll take those things off.

Okay. Now, that's fine. Now, you said that when you were at Grant's house, that Grant would lie down, and he'd sleep right?

(Nodding head.)

Okay; and he would have his clothes off or on?

Off.

Okay, off. Okay; and you would lie next to him, and you would have your clothes on or off?

Off.

Okay; and what else--tell me what would happen next.

Then the mother would have her clothes off.

The mother, too? Well, was she there too, or did she go shopping?

She came back.

She came back, and was lying with you, or was she somewhere else?

She was right here.

Right here?

And the girls were over here, and the boys were over here.

Now, L., this is important, okay?

(Nodding head.)

Listen. Are we talking about make-believe or what really happened?

Really happened.

Okay. So when you were little, and you would go to Janice and Grant's house, right?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. Janice would be lying down with her clothes off or on?

Off.

Off, and would she be in the same place or a different place from you?

Here. Then visit the girls--get--the boys have to be here.

Who is this boy?

That's the brother--sister.

What's this girl's name? That's you, okay, and what is this boy's name?

I already told you.

You said it's the brother. Did you tell me his name?

I don't know his name.

You don't know his name?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Is that Grant's? Does he belong to Grant and Janice? Is he their child?

(Nodding head.)

Is his--let's see. What was his name? Was he--now, this boy is black; right?

(Nodding head.)

Was he black or white?

Black.

Black; but was he their child?

(Nodding head.)

Is that true?

(Nodding head.) I'll take his clothes off, now. That's my daddy.

That's your daddy? You could tell his cough, huh?

Because he coughs every time.

He does? Does he smoke cigarettes?

(Nodding head.)

You think that's why he coughs?

Because he has a headache.

Oh.

This is a boy, too.

It is a boy. When you were at Grant's and Janice's, was there a boy there, too?

(Nodding head.)

At the same time or a different time from you?

At the same time.

Same time?

(Nodding head.)

And when you were sleeping, was it during the day or at nighttime?

The nighttime.

Nighttime? Did you spend the night there?

Forever.

Forever; I don't think so. Are you pretending?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah? Okay. Well, it's okay to pretend, but you know what?

What?

I really need to know what really happened, not make-believe, but what really happened, okay?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. It's very important. Do you know why?

Why?

Okay. Well, some of the children--you know why we're here, and what this room is all about?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Well, a lot of children come, and they talk to me, or they talk to Joe. I don't think you met Joe. He's over there making some phone calls right now. They come and talk to me or Joe, and they tell us about things that may have happened that upset them, and do you know what those things are?

What?

Well, sometimes little children come, and they say that a grownup touched them in a private place. Do you know what a private place is?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Do you know what this is called here? That's called your vagina, and that's a private place. It belongs to you, not to anybody else, and these here, those are your breasts, and that's private, too.

And you pee-pee is right here.

Yeah; and did you know that grownups are not supposed to touch children's private places?

(Nodding head.)

But let's suppose if a grownup tried to touch you, do you know what you should say?

What?

"No." You should say, "No, I don't want you to do that," but let's suppose a grownup tried to do that, and you still said, "No," and they still did it. It wouldn't be your fault.

No fault?

No, because a lot of children come, and they talk to me, and they feel very sad, because they think that they did something bad, but they didn't, because grownups are much bigger than children and if a grownup wants to touch you here or something, and you don't want them to, even so, you don't want them to, they can make you do it, because they are bigger than you; but they shouldn't, because you know why?

Why?

Because your body belongs to you. It doesn't belong to anybody else. It's yours, and even if you didn't want somebody to give you a hug and a kiss, it would be okay to say, "No." Did you know that?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Yeah it would be. So the reason that I'm asking you these questions is that some children came and talked to me and talked to me about a grownup touching them here and taking their clothes off and doing something with their penis, and so I needed to talk to you and find out if this happened to you. So that's why I'm asking you the questions. So it's very important that you don't play pretend, but that you tell me what really happened, okay? If I say that your name is George, is that true or a lie?

True.

True? Is your name George?

No.

No? Then that's a story, right?

(Nodding head.)

If I say that your name is Harold, is that true or a story?

Story.

Yeah. If I say your name is L., is that true or a story?

True.

Yeah, it's true. Okay. Can you tell me the truth? Can you tell me what's true about what happened when you went to Grant's?

Yeah.

Yeah, because you know what? Mommy and Daddy would be very proud if you tell me what is true, that happened.

(Nodding head.)

Okay, Even if somebody said--did Grant ever say to you, "Don't tell anybody. You'll get in trouble. Mommy will be mad?"

(Shaking head in the negative.)

No? Okay. Can you come closer here? Come over around here. Bring your chair. Okay. You sit down in this chair, okay? Okay. Now, can you tell me when you went over to Grant's, not make-believe, but real, okay, you won't get in any trouble. It would be really good if you would tell me the truth, okay?

(Nodding head.)

Tell me what would happen when you went over to Grant's, and Janice would go out to the grocery store. What would happen?

Grant--I said, "No" because he said he wanted to touch here.

Uh-huh.

And then I didn't let him. I said, "No," that I was going to tell my daddy when I went home.

Well, Daddy said you didn't really say that. I'm trying to understand what really happened, because I think that maybe you're afraid you might get in trouble; and you won't. You really won't. Nobody's going to be mad at you, because you didn't do anything bad, because Mommy and Daddy said that, after you used to go there a lot, then last year, when J. would go, and you would go over there to pick up J., that sometimes, you wouldn't want to go, and I just wondered if maybe you didn't want to go because you were afraid; maybe you were afraid something might happen that wasn't good, or that you didn't like. Maybe there was something that you were afraid to tell Mommy and Daddy, because you were afraid you might get in trouble, and they might get mad.

Uh-huh.

Yeah? Okay. Now, Mommy and Daddy are not going to be mad at you. They would be so proud if you could tell, because, you know what?

What?

A lot of children come in here, and they talk to me, and you know why?

Why?

Because I'm a yucky secrets doctor. Sometimes, if your stomach hurts, and you go to a doctor, and you feel better, or if you had a toothache, and you go to a dentist, and you feel better--well, I'm a yucky secrets doctor. I'm the doctor that children come to when they tell me yucky secrets that they don't want to talk about, and then, when they talk about them, they feel all better, because then once you talk about it--sometimes, if you are afraid to talk about something, and then you feel bad because you're afraid you might get in trouble, or maybe you did something bad, and then, when you talk about it, you feel all better, because then you find out that nobody is going to get mad, and you didn't do anything bad, so that's why it would be really good if you could talk to me, okay?

(Nodding head.)

How about--let's pretend this is--how about if you--let's pretend this is you, this is L., okay, and this is Grant. Show me with the dolls what happened, okay? Could you do that?

(Nodding head.)

Okay.

I'm going to put the clothes back on.

Well, did they have their clothes on or off?

Now it's morning.

It's morning, okay.

Where is that? Where is me?

Do you remember which one dress belonged to you? This one. A little one.

This one belongs to--

--Janice.

--Janice.

Shall I put her clothes on?

(Nodding head.) Where is her panties?

I'm sure we'll find them. Here they are right here.

No, that's the mom's.

Yeah, that's the mom's. Here are the panties for the little girl.

You can put--what was that?

I don't know.

I know it was somebody. I know what leg you're supposed to put in.

Uh-huh. Did Grant look like this or like this?

(Indicating.)

Like that? Did he have hair or no hair?

Some hair.

Some hair? Did he have hair on his chest or under his arms, around his penis, or everywhere?

Everywhere.

Everywhere, okay. Was the hair around his penis--was it dark, like this, or was it blonde like your hair?

It was like that.

Darker?

(Nodding head.)

Was it really dark, like black, or lighter than black?

Black.

Black? What about the hair on his chest? Was that dark or light?

Dark.

Dark? What about the hair on his head? Was that dark or light?

Dark.

Dark? Was it--now, your hair is very blonde; right?

(Nodding head.)

Was his hair--

Blonde like mine.

Blonde like yours, okay; but what about the other hair on him; blonde like yours or darker?

Blonde like mine.

Now, you just said to me a minute ago that it was dark. Which one was it? Which one was true? Was it dark or light; blonde or dark?

It was blonde, then it was dark like this color, and then it was blonde like this.

So a little blonde and a little dark all together?

(Nodding head.)

I understand. Like not everybody has hair that's all blonde like yours. Some people's hair is a little blond and a little dark together; right?

(Nodding head.) Something happened.

No. You know what I think that is? That's like--see my sleeves?

(Nodding head.)

It's sort of like that. It's--those are like sleeves. That's just the way somebody made it. I don't think it's broken or anything. It needs to be sewn up, I think. Should we put that on?

That's the arms.

Those are the arms, yeah. I think what we do is that the--see the way this is? You put it around, and then you connect it in the back.

Like this?

Uh-huh. Yeah, that's right. Good. When you were over at Grant's, and J. was there, too, did Janice ever leave you and J., both of you, alone with Grant?

(Nodding head.)

And did Grant ever take J.'s clothes off?

(Nodding head.)

And what did he do after he took his clothes off?

This is J.

That's J.?

(Nodding head.)

Let's pretend this one is J., okay?

Want me to put his clothes back on?

Well, let's pretend--you told me that Grant took J.'s clothes off; right?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. What did he do after he took his clothes off?

He didn't want to do that, and so me and her cried.

You cried because he took your clothes off?

Both of us.

He did? Did he hurt you?

(Nodding head.)

Can you show me what he did?

(Nodding head.)

Would you?

(Nodding head.)

Show me what he did.

He sit us up, and then he let us feel better. I feel better.

But when you cried, what did he do to make you cry? Can you show me?

He set us up, and then he bite your hand, and we cried.

He bit your hands? Did he bite anything else besides your hands?

He said, "Now, can I pull your dress up and then do this?"

He did?

(Nodding head.)

Would you show what he did?

He pulled this down.

He pulled it down?

Yeah.

And he put his finger inside?

(Nodding head.) I didn't like that.

You didn't like that? I don't blame you. And when he put his finger inside, L., did he put it--let me see with this doll--let's pretend for a minute. Did he put his finger inside your butt or inside your vagina?

(Indicating.)

Your vagina?

(Nodding head.) This won't stay.

L., did he put anything besides his finger--

--inside?

Yeah.

What's inside?

This is what I wanted to ask you. We're going to pretend this is you; right?

(Nodding head.)

And you said that he took your pants down, and he put his finger inside; right?

(Nodding head.)

Did--did he--did he put--did he ever put his penis inside or just his finger?

(Indicating.)

His penis, too?

(Nodding head.)

Did he put his penis--let me show you. Did he rub his penis outside or put it inside?

Inside.

Inside. Did it hurt?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah, like that? And did he ever put his penis anywhere else? Did he put his penis here, or did he put his penis here, or did he put his penis in your mouth; where else?

(Indicating.)

In your mouth, too? And then what happened? When he put his penis in your mouth what happened then?

Tastes yucky.

Tasted yucky. Did something come out of his penis?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Now when you said it tasted yucky, what tasted yucky, his penis, or was it wet?

It was wet.

It was wet. Did you think maybe like he peed in your mouth or something?

He did.

He did? He peed in your mouth?

(Nodding head.)

Did he do that one time or a lot of times or a few times?

One time.

One time, and what about to J.? Did he do the same thing to J.?

(Nodding head.)

Could you show me?

(Nodding head.)

Show me what he did to J.

He did like this. He put it together, and you put it in here, and then he turned him over, and he put it in his mouth.

He did? And do you know--did he pee in J.'s mouth, too?

(Nodding head.)

Did J. cry?

(Nodding head.)

Did this happen in the living room or the bedroom?

In the living room.

In the living room? What about the shower? Did it ever happen in the shower, in the bath tub?

It happened in the shower.

In the shower?

Too.

In the shower, too, so it happened more than one time? It's okay. You can tell me, L. You didn't do anything bad. You know that you didn't. You shouldn't feel bad. Were you scared you did something wrong?

(Shaking the head in the negative.)

Well, that's good, because you didn't do anything wrong, and it's very good that you're telling me. When this happened, was Janice at home or was she away?

She was home.

She was home?

Taking a shower.

Taking a shower?

You know what happened?

Huh?

And then they did it in the shower, and then I came out of the shower, and I got dressed and came back home.

Yeah; and when it happened, and Janice was in he shower, were you in the shower with Janice, or you were somewhere else?

I was somewhere else--in the other thing with J.

You were with J. and with Grant?

(Nodding head.)

While Janice was in the shower?

(Nodding head.)

Do you think that Janice knew what was happening?

Yeah, because she hears us, because there were two showers together.

Two showers together? Did she see it?

(Nodding head.)

She did?

(Nodding head.)

Did Janice ever touch you in a private place?

(Shaking head in he negative.)

No? Just Grant?

(Nodding head.)

But did Janice ever talk to Grant about it?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

But did Janice see Grant, what Grant was doing?

No. When he was doing that--

Uh-huh.

--then me and J. were in the shower, got a towel and went in the shower and then we go back over to my house.

You went back over to your house?

(Nodding head.)

So did Janice ever hurt you, or did just Grant hurt you?

Just Grant.

Just Grant? Do you think that Janice knew that Grant hurt you?

Uh-huh.

You do?

(Nodding head.)

Is there anything else that you can tell me about what happened?

(Shaking the head in the negative.) That's all.

That's all? When was the last time it happened? Was it a long time ago or a little while ago?

A long time ago, when I was a baby.

When you were a baby? But what about--now, J. is--when you were talking about you and J., that wasn't a long time ago, because J.'s not very old now; right?

He's at home now.

He's at home now, I know; but he's just a baby now, right? He's a little boy. He's not as big as you.

He came out--he came out the same when I came out.

Not the same time, because you were--let's see--

--little.

Do you know how old J. is?

(Nodding head.)

How old?

He's old.

He's not old. He's little. You're teasing me, huh? But, see, I talked to Mommy and Daddy before, and they told me J. was just little. J.'s littler than you; huh?

And then one night--J. was my grandma now, and then Janice, I was living with--

--Grant?

(Nodding head.) And then he's teasing Janice, the same thing what me and J. did. We didn't do anything, just Grant.

Just Grant, not Janice? Okay. I really am glad you told me. Is there anything else you want to tell me?

That's all.

Is there anything you want to ask me?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

Anything you wonder about?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

That's all? Anything you're wondering about?

(Shaking the head in the negative.)

Okay.

It's over with.

Yes, it is over with, and nobody is going to hurt you again and if--you know, most grownups don't try to touch children in the private places. If a grownup does, they have a problem. Did you know that?

(Shaking head in the negative.)

And it isn't the children's fault, and if somebody ever tried again--I don't think they would, but if they did, you know what you should do?

What?

Say, "No," and if they say, "Don't tell your mom. You'll get in trouble," don't believe them, because it would be good to tell your mommy and your daddy, because you won't get in trouble, and they would not be mad at you, because your mommy and your daddy love you very much, and they would protect you; make sure nobody hurts you. Okay. Should we go see Mommy and Daddy now?

Let me put these back.

Put them back on? Okay. Let's see. Which ones belong to him? This belongs to him, I think, and him, yeah, that--where is this guy's pants?

It's on the floor.

On the floor? I think they're--oh, let's see. Is it these blue ones? No, these blue ones go to the little boy.

That's--That's J. All the pants are down here.

Oh, I know. It's the ones I have in my hand. I didn't even see I had them in my hand.

Okay. J.-- where is J.? Here's J. That's J., and this is the brother. I'll fix the brother.

Can I ask you a question?

(Nodding head.)

Mommy said that sometimes, you have trouble in remembering to go to the bathroom. Is that true?

(Shaking head in the negative.) My mom doesn't get mad at me.

I know she doesn't get mad at you, and that's good. Your mom loves you so much. Do you think that sometimes, you forget to go to the bathroom? Does that have anything to do with what happened at Grant's house?

When Grant gets mad at me, Janice gets mad at Grant, and then Janice comes up and says, "It's all right."

Yeah, but did Grant get mad at you?

(Nodding head.)

What did he say?

He said, "Don't you dare do that in my house again," and then Janice came up to--Janice came up to Grant--

Uh-huh.

--and then, when they did that--

Uh-huh.

--the mother, she was starting to fight with Grant--

Yeah.

--and then--and then Grant got in trouble.

Do you know what happened--

What?

--after that?

What happened after that? The policeman came and taked him the rest of the day and sent him to jail.

He did? Did you see that on television?

(Nodding head.)

Yeah?

And even on the newspapers.

Yeah? You saw it in the newspaper, too?

I see that picture.

That's right; he did. And did you know why he went to jail?

(Nodding head.)

Why?

Because he did bad stuff.

Yeah. You know what the bad stuff was?

(Nodding head.) Grant put some pee in J. and me, and then he put it in our pee-pee, in our butt. We didn't like that.

I know you didn't. I'm sorry it happened, but, you know, you didn't do anything bad. I'm glad you know that. His pants don't want to go on. They're too tight, I think.

Maybe. That's Grant.

This is Grant? No, I don't think so. Grant's not black. I think that maybe these aren't the right pants. They seem awful tight. Which pants go on this one? Is there another pair of pants?

No.

No?

I didn't see any.

Well, let's see.

This is the shirt.

There they are. Those are his pants. That's why those are too tight. Those go to the little boy.

I told you.

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

They seem like they were too tight.

I'll put the people away.

You're going to put them away over there?

Yeah.

Thanks. I appreciate your help. You're very neat. I bet your mommy is proud of you; your daddy, too.

Because I didn't do anything.

No, you didn't.

I bet my Mommy and Daddy hear--

Is it okay if we tell Mommy and Daddy?

(Nodding head.)

Okay. Because they won't be mad. They'll be very proud of you, because you were so brave to tell, because I know it's hard to talk about it.

I told them what happened already.

You did?

When we go here, I told them.

You did?

They don't have to tell them right now.

Oh, okay. Well, if you feel like talking about it some more to Mommy and Daddy when you go home, that will be okay, okay?

Okay.

And if you don't want to, that's okay, too; whatever you would like to do, but if you want talk to them or tell them anything, that would be all right.

This is hot.

Is it hot?

Yeah.

Here. I think you need to put his underpants on first.

I know, but I have to--

Shall I put on his underpants, and you put those right side out?

(Shaking the head in the negative.)

No? Boy, you have pretty hair. Did you know that?

(Nodding head.)

It's so blonde, just like your mommy's.

Do you know what?

What?

Every time my friends say that, my Mommy says, "Uh-huh."

Uh-uh, what?

Because Mommy says I didn't do anything to Grant.

No. Were you afraid maybe you might get in trouble?

That's why I didn't go to Grant's house when I was a baby. I could have this?

Yes. Would you like more than one? You could have another one.

I want another one.

As soon as we finish putting the clothes on.

I'll put it in here, because I don't have any pockets.

That's nice. Maybe--

Maybe I'll put in here.

Do you like rainbows?

(Nodding head.)

Me, too.

I can fit it in, easy.

When you get home, you could put it on the wall, or you could put it in a little dish or something, whatever you like.

Hey, look, his pants.

Oh, no, his pants fell down. Do you want to get them, and we'll fix them?

Yeah.

He looks funny. You know what I think? His pants broke. It looks like--yeah, that's what happened. I guess I'd better take him home and sew him.

I think the other ones are, too.

Oh, yeah, it looks like somebody broke it. Oh, I see what happened, yeah.

It broke.

Yeah, it did break. I'll have to take it home and sew it.

Who did that?

I don't know who did it.

Look.

I'm sure they didn't mean to. What do you got?

The puppets.

Oh, yeah? You know who that is?

Who?

Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse and Donald Duck. Did you ever go to Disney World?

Yeah, when I was a baby.

Did you like it?

Yeah. If I get in trouble, I'm going to give it to my mommy.

Okay. Well, that would be sweet. Let's see; almost done. You want to put these guys over on the table?

Yeah.

Okay, good.

Grant's already done.

Good.

So when I come back here someday--

Uh-huh.

--and tell what somebody did next--

Yeah.

--I'll tell you.

Okay. Oh, you all right?

Fell down again.

You fell down again?

That hurt.

Well, if you want to come back to talk to me, that would be fine. You just tell your mommy.

Okay.

If there is anything else you remember or think about --

There is two mirrors.

Two mirrors, yeah.

I like this room.

Do you? I'm glad you do. I like it, too. I think it's kind of nice.

You put the toys up here.

I think that's a good idea.

They don't have no place to put them.

Right. We need to get another table in here. Okay. Let's see.

Put the chairs up.

Let's go put the chairs up. Let's go get a couple more rainbows, and then we'll get Mommy and Daddy.

Okay.

Boy, you're neat. I'll bet you're a help around the house.

You got long hair.

Yes, I do.



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