I am a lifelong gun buff who has done a lot of growing up on this issue, and I
applaud your HOT GUNS segment. The argument that cheap shoddy guns are needed for
protection by low-income people doesn't wash; you can obtain a decent used revolver
for the price of a Lorcin .380, or a good used shotgun for even less. People of
all income levels who feel the need for a gun have options other than the products
of such an irresponsible and venal operation.
I think the problem with gun related crime
can not be fixed by eliminating people's
right to own guns or establishing gun bans.
Even without guns, if a criminal wants to
kill someone, he will find some way. If he
wants to rob somebody, he can use a knife.
After all, there were robberies, rapes, murders
committed before firearms were even invented.
I don't believe it was any safer to walk on
the street 300 years ago. In Russia, no one
can own guns, but yet, their crime rate,
including violent crime rate is very high.
We cannot cure diseases by treating the
symptoms; we got to get to the causes. We
need to prevent people from becoming
criminals, and give much tougher punishment
to those who do become one.
El Cerrito CA
There was a person who made the show - it will be biased in some way no matter how
hard one tries. Credit needs to be given to PBS for pointing out that there are
more issues involved than just guns are good vs. guns are evil. I would love to see
another show that shows another point of view and/or delves deeper into the issues
brought up. That is what PBS does well! This show just hit the surface of an
issue that covers so much ground. It is unrealistic to assume that one hour can
thoroughly cover all sides equally AND effectively.
I am not in favor of gun control under the guise that it will stop criminals from
getting the guns. That won't work. Hot Guns just reinforced that opinion, if
nothing else. But I am also in favor of control of the gun industry. The security
issues brought up really surprised me and worried me since I know how difficult it
is to get into a school library! It looked easier to steal a gun from that factory
than a book from the public library! Another way of looking a this is to compare
Lorcin to a pharmaceutical company. I can't imagine Lorcin's security level at a
places that manufactures even aspirin! The public would be outraged. (I admit I
don't really know, but assume this from working in a hospital and knowing those
As a gun rights supporter, your program made me quite angry, not for the obvious
reason you might suspect, but because of what I learned about the non-existent
security at Lorcin. The theft of these guns to be used by criminals (who can't buy
guns legally) only lends fuel to the anti-gun fire. For a gun manufacturer not to
realize this, and not to do something about it, shows that they are in it for the
short term profit, and not to ensure people's civil liberties as Lorcin claims.
Before you think I completely agree with your program let me continue. While I
personally would not purchase a Lorcin gun, or any other inexpensive gun, I do see
the validity of the argument that poor people can only afford those types of guns.
I do believe everyone has a right (and a duty) to defend themselves and their
fellow citizens. To ban these types of guns would clearly infringe upon that
right/duty for those who cannot afford $600.00 guns. Unfortunately, crime
disproportionately affects those very people. Perhaps a better solution would be
to ban being poor? Then we don't need cheap guns, and crime, being
disproportionately committed by the economically disadvantaged, would also
What we need to figure out is how can we keep guns (of any type) of out the hands of
people who have demonstrated misuse or who are not old enough to own them, while
not infringing on my rights? I should never have to pay any price for what
criminals do. Instant checks are a good idea, and I think they will prevent some
gun crimes by preventing previously convicted (but mysteriously out-on-the-street)
violent felons from purchasing guns. However, it won't stop the majority of them.
What is the real problem? How do 16 year old kids get guns, and how do we stop
them, without stopping me from getting them? Increased security at places like
Lorcin might be a start (but they might not help much at all).
What we ultimately have to decide is how much liberty are we willing to give up to
solve this problem? Even if we gave up all our liberty, would the problem be
I for one am not willing to give up any of my liberty because some gang-banger in
L.A. shot someone (especially another gan-banger), or some crazed mad-man went on a
rampage. I didn't do it, so don't punish me.
What we don't need are European solutions to our problems. They aren't solutions.
In every European country that has strict gun control laws, they have always been
in response to increasing gun violence, and have, in every case, failed to curb it.
America was founded on Libertarianism, lets not turn it back into Great Britain.
Scott M. Baugher
Alta Loma, CA
Since the signing of the Constitution, and surely even today, American's are in love
with guns, that is those who have yet to be victimized by them. With the tens of
thousands on the streets unaccounted for, it will not be long
before someone you know or a loved one falls prey as you made evident in your recent
broadcast. It is indeed unfortunate that our leaders lack the will, profiteers
lack the moral courage, and consumers lack the restraint to turn
this around. Unfortunately, the old adage "if you shoot at nothing, you'll hit it
every time" only applies to current methods to track weapons in this country.
I think I heard in the Frontline program that 10% of Lorcin's production is used in
crime. If that's true then 90% are not used in crime! If we factor in all the
guns stolen from the factory what percent of guns legally bought are used in crimes?
Maybe the vast majority of guns are actually used legally as self defense weapons as
claimed. The police can't be everywhere and sometimes you have to depend on
yourself. I'd rather have a gun when someone is breaking into my home than just
Lorcin's lack of security can't be excused. Guns are a controlled product. I would
expect ATF to take some action and to see some private law suits. If the pressure
on Lorcin is so much that they go out of business, so be it. But I don't think we
need more gun laws.
Gun laws are edicts, by people who have no clue.
No law ever stopped anything from happening.
Our nation is supposed to be one thing above all else: free.
When a law is made that demands the results of a bad act be the thing punished, and
not the act itself, then the consequences will be the thing that leads to more self
Gun laws, or more correctly - anti-gun laws, are in reality anti-tool laws, for what
is a gun if it is not in reality a tool?
Any tool can be misused or abused.
To single out a specific tool, speaks volumes about bigotry.
But because a tool cannot speak for itself, or ask for protection from slanderous
statements from a court of law, it is open to every possible attack by those who
are unthinking enough to consider the ill-logic of their own acts.
The gross result of any law that seeks to impose a penalty as a means of preventing
an act, is to remove self respect and self responsibility from those who are
subject to that law. Tis is so, because the law in speaking of preventing an act,
says that the people are not responsible enough for their own actions.
If the law simply stated, that as a result of irresponsibly exercising a Right, you
have caused others to suffer in a measurable and definable way, you shall be
punished as the law reasonably permits, the respect for the law and its constraints
would have greater impact.
The bottom line then, is that no law ever stopped anyone from doing anything.
Only the law abiding obey laws, and only the law abiding are disenfranchised from
what otherwise would be a lawful act, were it not for the obfuscationing,
dissembling, and outright lies spoken on behalf of ever more authoritarianism by our
elected officials - who really should know better.
But, alas, it is mostly the fourth estate. which of late has become the fifth column
in convincing Americans that freedom is much too dangerous a condition to suffer,
and must give over to tyranny, sweet, sweet tyranny, where everything is so very
safe and protected, until you become the next bad example.
Edward J Totty
It was interesting to note in your documentary how the president of the gun
manufacturer stated that none of the pistols themselves stolen from his
killed anyone because, he says, "somebody" had to squeeze the trigger.
He should have added in that same passive defense that "somebody" pulled the
trigger because "somebody" else, namely his company, allowed the guns to
leave the warehouse undetected.
This is not a question of gun rights nor ownership. It is a basic question
which every good gun owner in NRA class 101 knows the answer of: common sense
and respect in the handling and supervision of a gun.
The CEO's elusive response to his company's mishandling of the theft of guns
makes as much sense as the Texas rustler who told a judge: "Your honor, I did
not steal the horses. Sure, I got on them, but it was the horses that rode me
out of the stable".
The president of the gun manufacturer makes money off the guns. In turn, he
should come forward and bear responsibility for his company's shortcoming.
I am posting this quite a few days after the show was aired and many of the details
of the show have left me. So, I can only speak of the my general thoughts on the
show. My first impression of the ATF agent was that he was dedicated and really
cared about what he was doing. I thank god there are law enforcement officers like
him in this country. My other impression was that the show was difficult to
I had not heard anything about the show previous to viewing it so I was not sure
what to expect. What I found was that the show meandered between condemning a
criminal for stealing guns from his employer and then selling them illegally on the
street to condemning the owner of the low price weapons producers.
Somehow I fail to see the connection. If the owner of the weapons manufacturing
plant is required by law to have certain security measures in his plant then surely
he should be prosecuted for this violation. However, just because the plant was
not as secure as some does not mean the employees have a right to steal. The
bottom line is the fault lies with the employee who stole the weapons and then sold
them illegally on the street.
The owner of the plant should not be held liable for something which he did not
condone or would have stopped had he known. I think another point of logic was
missed in the show and that is that these inanimate objects that we call guns can
no more kill a person of themselves as a baseball bat can laying on the ground.
It's time to put the blame for gun violence where it belongs blame the perpetrator
of the violence and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law regardless of
what type of weapon they use.
Having just watched your "Hot Guns" broadcast, I couldn't help but
wonder if US. Attorneys are quick to prosecute low level
criminals (easy statistics), they are far more reluctant to pursue
corporations and executives. It seems that when they do take action
against those groups, their weapons are negotiation, mediation, and
alternative dispute resolution rather than criminal prosecution.
ATF Special Agent McCrary and his colleagues are brave men doing
dangerous work. Is their courage being matched by that of Justice
St. Paul, MN
In 1986 my wife held off an intruder who broke in through the patio doors. She
confronted him with a Smith & Wesson 38 special. I was out of town and my wife and
teen age daughter were home alone. Don't tell me I shouldn't have a gun in my
house. Your piece on affordable handguns was simply another hit piece on hand guns.
My wife and three daughters have been brought up learning how to safely own and
operate a firearm. If Frontline is truly objective about your editorial content
then you might consider a piece about the estimated 2.5 million people each year
that because of the mere presence of a firearm were not a victim, but then you and
I both know that will never happen.
I suspect that all the heat PBS has taken
re funding, et al, in the recent past has
caused a perceptible shift in your
objectivity. I am an avid shooter,
an opponent of gun control in general, and
I believe you did a fair and reasonably
well-rounded piece compared to your past
offerings regarding this general subject
What is further interesting are the mail
comments that seem to leap toward litigation.
Not surprising, but interesting.
There are no good guns, there are no bad guns. Any gun in the hands of a bad man,
can be used for evil. Any gun in the hands of a good man, can be used properly,
responsibly and for good. When the focus is placed on criminal behavior or on
exceptionally negligent behavior, then we can help our society be a better place.
By focusing on an inanimate object, which by definition is amoral, and can be
used to either save a life or take a life or for recreation, etc. is just plain
distracting. I wish this could be realized by reasonable people of goodwill
throughout this land. I urge all Frontline viewers to learn more about the history
of firearms in America and how gun control laws have strangely skewed our culture
by reading a recent book entitled "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. You can
easily order it through www.amazon.com as it is doubtful that it can be obtained at
your local bookstore. There you can find out about the real "gun culture" in
America - a culture
that many Americans wish to
sacrifice on the pretend-altar of crime control. Thank you for the opportunity to
respond on your excellent web site!
I saw this show last night and was very disappointed at the
nearly content-free presentation. Very few facts were presented,
and the majority of the show seemed to be a collective wallow in
hand-wringing and menacing close-ups of criminal hardware complete
with minor-key soundtrack. The whole production was more worthy
of Hard Copy or something similar rather than the usual careful
work I'm used to from Frontline.
Several specific examples made lasting impressions: Dr. Wintemute's
hand-waving away of Dr. Kleck's self-defense study (acknowledged by
criminologist Marvin Wolfgang and verified by Professor Cook's study,
both pro-gun-control allies of Dr. Wintemute), without having
to present any evidence of his own. The cavalier juxtapositioning of
statistics of increased gun sales and youth violence, implying without
any proof that one is the cause of the other. (Could not increased crime
cause the law-abiding to buy guns in their own defense?) The good Doctor's
demonstration of a single jam of one of the guns in question (virtually all
semi-auto guns will jam at least once in their lifetime), commenting that
a person defending himself would now be facing his attacker unarmed, without
bothering to answer the unspoken question of how he would then be any worse
off than if he had no gun at all.
The most glaring omission was made obvious by the repeated assertion that
economically-priced handguns were preferred by criminals and were
used in the commission of crime. No statistics were ever presented, however, as to
how prevalent these guns are in the general population compared to their use in
If, as the manufacturer pointed out, Americans buy more Chevys than Cadillacs, then
criminal use of these guns would be in proportion to their general availability.
even more obvious was the lack of any information on how often the guns in question
used in self-defense scenarios. Even if they are the criminal's choice in guns,
well be the self-defenders choice of guns to an even greater extent. To one-sidedly
one aspect without the other would be like evaluating doctor's effectiveness by the
of deaths caused by malpractice (currently about 180,000/year, according to the 1990
Medical Practice Study) without ever discussing how many people they save.
It is legitimate for Frontline to point out the flaws in the security at these
but what was never mentioned, either by Frontline or the ATF agents it interviewed,
is that all
firearms manufacturers must be licensed by the ATF. The ATF currently has strict
requirements placed on all firearms dealers, and inspects those sites for
compliance, and there
is nothing that would prevent them from doing the same for manufacturers. If there
is a lack
of security in the firearms manufacturing industry, the ATF bears a large part of
the blame for
not exercising its oversight responsibilities.
I'd also like to note that, in the local ordinances passed by the 20 or so
and counties mentioned in the Frontline story which ban low-cost handguns, every one
ordinances contain exceptions for law enforcement officers. That's right: The guns
been told are inaccurate, jam, and blow up in your hand, magically become safe and
tools for establishing law and order when in the hands of government employees
defending our society. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
After watching your program on guns, I came up with this idea: how about
requiring that all guns be equipped with a camera that is activated with
each shot. And, the gun cannot be fired if the mechanism is covered up or
tampered with. Obviously, gun manufacturers wouldn't be terribly
enthusiastic about this, but if we can require airbags in cars, why not this.
I have never seen a gun outside the TV or movie screen or in the holster of
a policeman. I hope I never do. But for those for whom a gun is a
necessity, the least the rest of us can ask is that this "necessity" cannot
be used as if the mayhem it causes will be interrupted by commercials--and
the dead bodies will spring in another movie or TV program.
This is in reference to the show "junk guns".
I just watched the show and found poor law
enforcement. Something like this should
never be allowed to happen, however I would
like to comment that at least SMITH & WESSON
was mentioned in doing things the correct way.
Possibly PBS is not anti-gun, just showing us
the crime of illegal production of firearms. I
think now PBS should go to S&W and let us
see the correct way to manufacture, use and
While it is appalling that so many guns have ended up on the streets
illegally, I still believe you have erred in your remarks about the quality
of these so-called "Junk Guns". One of your interviewees stated that Gun
Test Magazine reported that no one should by a gun "for any price when it
self-destructs after only two hundred rounds." ANY weapon will jam or
explode upon firing if it is not properly maintained, including such
"quality" guns as Beretta, Glock, Colt, Smith & Wesson, etc.
I myself own a Chinese-made, semi-automatic 9mm Uzi. After firing over 500
rounds, it began to jam. I then thoroughly cleaned and oiled it; problem
solved. Incidentally, my Uzi qualifies as a "junk" gun, having cost me a
mere $450.00 at a gun store, as opposed to the $1000+ it would have cost for
a genuine Israeli model.
I'm afraid I have to agree with Mr. Lorcin - outlawing inexpensive weapons
only adds yet another class to our supposedly "classless society", those who
cannot afford to defend themselves.
I am a police officer, an avid shooter, a law-enforcement sales rep for a firearms
dealer and absolutely aghast at what I saw in this episode of "Frontline."
How any manufacturer can have a "leak" of 14,000 units of his product and not know
strains credulity way past the breaking point! Why BATF hasn't pulled his license -
without which he cannot legally operate - is beyond me!
I have seen them padlock small mom-and-pop gun stores for far less. I really don't
For the record, I oppose most new firearms regulation as being redundant and
unnecessary. We seldom prosecute for violations of the laws we currently have on
the books - witness the Lorcin story! - so more unenforced laws will do no more
good. If people want to go after Lorcins and their cousins, sisters and aunts on a
product liability level, or cite them for fraud for selling a tool for self-defense
which is unreliable, I could support that, wholeheartedly.
You went to great efforts to show that "junk guns" are worthless for
self-defense because they are very likely to jam and are misused by criminals but
you missed two very critical points.
(1) Even though your "junk gun" may jam on you when you face an armed intruder, it
is much better to have a gun in the first place that may scare off the intruder
without you ever having to fire a shot or allow you to fire a few shots before
jamming rather than be totally unarmed because the only gun you can afford has been
(2) If you have to faced an armed criminal, you want him to be armed with a small
caliber "junk gun" that is likely to jam because it gives you the best chance of
surviving the encounter.
Criminals will always have guns because having one is the only way they can carry on
their "trade". Banning guns will never prevent crime just as banning murder does
not prevent murders. Banning guns will remove guns off the streets just as
effectively as banning drugs removes drugs from our streets.
The only way to stop violent crime is to allow law-abiding citizens to carry a
concealed weapon. If ever potential victim is potentially armed, it becomes far
too hazardous for criminals to commit crimes against persons. Most will turn to
property crimes. Those who continue pursuing a career of violent crimes will very
quickly run into someone who will end their careers.
Concealed carry is the practical equivalent of having a cop on every corner.
S.F. , CA
Once again I see those who would scare the public into attempting to legislate a
utopia where no one is ever wronged, and the government and other institutions
would "make everything right". If so many people accept this idea without
question, then perhaps those citizens don't deserve or even require the right to
vote. None of the constitutional "Bill of Rights" would be required in a utopia.
The reality however is that people are imperfect, both leaders and followers and
that the best we can do is to a reach a level of mutual respect for each other. To
the enlightened, respect is an understanding, but to the consciences, respect is
The laws are already in place to prevent most citizens from protecting themselves
with a handy gun when attacked by violent criminals who have no care about minding
the laws against their actions ...whether or not they use a gun. You mentioned
something about the 1968 Federal gun control act, but appeared to gloss over that
The Lorcin spokesman mentioned something about the largely unnoticed instances where
potentially violent crimes were deterred or foiled by an armed citizen, and I for
one am glad to be alive. The view you presented, as did the ATF agent, was that
the public could not be trusted, because every gun that was unaccounted for
represented a violent criminal act. With this kind of mindset it is always
justified to restrict the citizen. I submit that it is easier and safer to spend
ones time chasing after citizens concerned about protecting themselves than to
confront violent people.
I believe that the 1968 ban was a wrong turn that we have never recovered from. In
lieu of all of the laws restricting people from deterring crimes against them on
the spot, wouldn't we be better off with more comprehensive safety training, along
with more emphasis on instilling pride, confidence and respect for each other, like
Thomas Jefferson envisioned.
San Bernardino, CA
I enjoyed your recent piece on Lorcin and I am quite surprised that given our
litigious society that the trial lawyers haven't jumped all over this.
Lorcin's lack security is clear negligence on their part and clearly
contributed to the numerous crimes that were committed with those stolen
guns. All the crime victims should be able to sue Lorcin, particularly that
poor woman's family in NY. Are there suits pending?
Being on the outside of the US looking in it becomes clear that the occurrence of
gun related crimes must be related to both the shear number of weapons and
inadequacy of the US justice system.
Based on this reasoning, gun laws in the US DO make it easy to put guns in the hands
of criminals. One of the purposes of laws are to act as a deterrent, I would
suggest that the deterrent embedded in the US justice system is, at best, a slap on
the wrist, especially if the shooter doesn't kill his/her intended victim.
Another obvious problem lies in the definition of criminals. Members of hate groups
so called "law abiding citizens" are virtually immune to existing legislation in
the US due to the notion that criminals are all flamboyant, walk up to someone in
the streets and shoot them attitude portrayed on TV.
As far as amendments and the US constitution go, why is it so hard to see the dark
ages to which some of these amendments owe their provenance. The "Rule of thumb"
used to represent the diameter of a stick a man was allowed to beat his woman with,
obviously a rule which has since been reconsidered. I would suggest that the US
take a second look at their legislation as they move into the next century.
Victoria, B.C., Canada
I think the Frontline staff was a little weak in research on the Hot Guns Program.
Sometimes a poor person defending their home cannot afford a $600 pistol. Also, it
should be noted that the opening logo for Hot Guns on the web site shows the front
of a Glock pistol with laser site ó by far not a cheap gun set up by any means. The
folks at Glock should take offense at such a display.
I'd also like to note that on a recent trip to Rome, Italy, there were military
police on every third street corner (one of each group had a sub-machine gun and
body armor) and the hotel clerk told us to be careful of the Gypsies in the area
("They kill people, but they don't ever seem to report it in the newspapers," he
said. Gotta love those low crime rates!!)
The US. is fortunate to not have the massive swings left and right in its
government that the rest of the world seems to have.
Guns seem to be a major factor in that stability, my friend in Germany told me in
1979 during a student exchange.
The constitution was written so that government could be contained, not so that a
person could shoot ducks on a Sunday afternoon to put meat on the table.
I like my government the way it is ó a lot more subservient to the public than I
see any where else, even Switzerland, where I pleasantly learned every able bodied
person is required to posses a full-automatic "assault" rifle. (They also have a
very low crime rate, by the way.)
I love Frontline, but this program should have been a multi-part series on guns,
just as anything about Constitutional issues should be.
Thanks for your time and an excellent web site.
Show about Hot Guns and the ring of fire gun companies. There are a
great many question to be answered. But one question I cannot get out
of my head is, why the victim or their families have not brought any
lawsuit against Lorcin Engineering company? Because the weapons were
stolen from the plant, the weapons belong to Lorcin Engineering, the
company is responsible for their safe keeping and accounting. Only
when the weapons are transfer to the distributor or warehouser dose
the company no longer has responsibly for what happens to the weapon
other than safe workings of the weapons.
Should the company fails to
take reasonable measures to prevent theft of weapons or weapon parts
and accountability of weapons serial numbers, then the company should
bear the responsibly for any one who is harmed or kill by the firearms
stolen in this manner.
Firearms are deadly weapons, there fore here
what I would expect to see for any weapons plant. The plant should
have a controlled entry point, all personal should have photo ID
badges to control the movement of personnel (A person who paints the
gun or stamping out the gun has no reason to be hanging around the
shipping department.) There should be video cameras' cover the whole
plant floors, to spot abnormal actives and take action. When the
company received requests for information on weapon serial numbers and
they found that they did not have any information about these weapons
their accounting system should have raised a whole bunch of RED flags.
We are not talking about someone or a group of organized people
breaking into the plant and steeling the weapons nor are we talking
about a squad of heavily armed people robbing the weapons plant at gun
We are talk about a WEAPON company allowing a situation where
anyone can grab boxes of weapons and walk off with then without anyone
know about it. That is what must make the weapon company responsible
for anyone who is harmed or killed by any of those stolen weapons.
Also, the negligence alone should be enough to bring the company up on
I'd like to thank Agent McCrary for his dogged pursuit and subsequent arrests of the
criminals in question. I admire his tenacity and am indebted to him.
Secondly, I think I watched a different program than many of the people who have
already sent in comments. I didn't get the impression that this was an argument
for 2nd amendment rights infringement. The most striking arguments were against
the Lorcin company for what appears to be criminal negligence and against the
antiquated tracking systems the AFT is forced to use. Of course, no law will
protect us against the likes of people who steal from Lorcin and then turn a
profit; But it is equally naive to believe that I will be safe if I carry a handgun
and turn a blind eye to the actions of Lorcin in the name of capitalism.
The focus of your program on "Hot Guns" seemed to have more of a political purpose
than an thought-provoking presentation of ALL of the facts. Considering the fact
that the state of Massachusetts was considering the enactment new handgun
regulations during the broadcast of the program, the political statement of the
producers of the program (WGBH of Boston, MA) seems even more clear. Any
credibility that PBS had in non-bias reporting has been downgraded through this
In answering the question "Do our gun laws make it easy to put guns in the hands of
criminals?" one must realize how many firearms laws there are in the US. There are
over 20,000 laws in the US relating to firearms. Federal laws already prohibit
felons from even possessing firearms. Federal laws prohibit people from one state
buying handguns from another state. All states must check the background of each
handgun purchaser. Perhaps before anyone answers that question, they should read up
on the firearm laws in this country and then decide.
The difference between commercial and public television was clearly evident June 3,
1997. While channel surfing I became distracted by a segment of NBC's Dateline
featuring a hard-hitting, no-nonsense look at taser-guns.
Dateline aired a segment on taser guns, those hand-held devices which allow muggers
to provide muggers with a 50K volt jolt of electricity when they threaten to
attack. Dateline was so in-depth. They interviewed spokespeople, victims and users
of the device on both sides of the taser gun issue who provided vehement input.
They even interview the founders of AirTaser, a manufacturer of this new method of
self defense. Dateline hit hard. How can you justify the manufacture of these
weapons, which caused 1-2 deaths and may have contributed to the deaths of at least
5-10 others? How can you sell this device with only a 1/4 inch thick instruction
and warning booklet, while police officers issued the device provide one which is
1/2 inch thick? How can you condone those gun shops which sell your product and do
not take the time to fill out and mail the attached registration cards, which would
identify the owner in case the device were used in a crime? How can you produce
this dangerous, way-of-life threatening device?
By the end of the segment, I was mentally screaming, "HEY DATELINE, HEY NBC, WHAT
ABOUT THE GUNS????" What about the product which made it easier to kill tens of
thousands of people last year? What about the device with NO method of identifying
the killer if the weapon is not recovered? What about the incredibly, ridiculously
widespread gun ownership that makes those "child shoots sibling" accidents so
Shouldn't something that makes killing so many so easily be reported everyday, like
a crisis situation, with statistics on deaths to date this year shown, and
undercover cameramen purchasing guns on the street like ice cream cones, and urban
children recounting the bloody horrors they have witnessed, and the proliferation
of underground weapons trade be exposed? When will the media help us realize the
extent to which we have made murder easy in the US.?
I changed the channel to PBS. Frontline was exposing the individual(s) responsible
for putting thousands of guns in the hands of those least likely to use them for
self defense. My thanks to Frontline, and PBS can count on my contribution this
At risk of being accused of being a part of an NRA campaign, I am going to address
some of the things I've seen written here. It is obvious that many people want to
take their own poorly reasoned ideas and force them upon everyone else. I've seen
it stated that self defense is not a valid reason for owning a gun, as the writer
"just doesn't see it" on the news. Do around 2.5 million times per year make it
valid enough for you? Read the research of Dr. Gary Kleck of Florida State
University (and not an NRA guy). How about "the only use for a handgun is killing
people. You don't use them for anything else." Well, get ready for a news flash.
One of the hottest trends in hunting is using a handgun. More challenging and all
that. And to discount target shooting is ludicrous. I especially get a kick out
of those who claim to be supporters of the 2nd amendment, and the next word is
"but." The leaders of the antigun movement have said that they hate all guns. How
much does it take to make you a believer. You don't think that bolt action deer rifle is on
their list? Try calling it a "high-powered sniper gun, used by criminals for
assassinations at up to half a mile."
More on topic, should Lorcin be held accountable for lax security? You better
believe it. I think that they should be raked over the coals for allowing such
things to happen. But PBS is using this as an opportunity to push for more gun
control, and that is wrong. You'd better believe my Senators will hear about
According to a survey conducted by the National Association of
Chiefs of Police (NACOP), police chiefs do not believe gun laws
do ANYTHING to limit guns in the hands of criminals. I agree
with them. In fact, studies by the Chicago P.D. and New York
P.D. have shown that greater than 75% of homicide victims have
extensive criminal records. That's ALL homicides, not just
"gun" homicides. In fact, the New England Journal of Medicine
and Trauma Journal estimates that 90% of homicides are drug
This means that if you passed a "miraculous" law that would save
every "innocent" potential homicide victim, that is, if only the
criminals with extensive violent crime records were the "victims"
of 1998, then our homicide rate would drop by less than 25%, and
probably closer to a mere 10%!
It is not the law-abiding citizen, the police officer, nor the
electric chair that is the greatest threat to the violent offender.
The greatest threat to the longevity of the violent offender is the
OTHER violent offender.
As long as there are criminals, they will have guns.
You also conveniently failed to note on your site that the Department
of Justice maintains a list of the ten most common firearms used in
crime, and NOT A SINGLE ONE of them is a so-called "Saturday Night
Special" or "junk gun." In fact, the number one gun used in crime is
the .38 Smith & Wesson revolver, which I might add, is one of the most
popular police and home-defense weapons.
Those individuals who are selling guns illegally to kids or other criminals
are FELONS. There are over 20,000 gun laws on the books in the United States.
If there are violators, then they need to be prosecuted. It is not legal to
sell a firearm to a minor anywhere in the US., so why do we need more laws
saying that it is illegal to sell to minors (as the president did last week).
The existing laws are not being enforced, so more laws need to be passed that
will deter murderers who are willing to kill people, but somehow have enough
conscience to obey the latest gun law.
Can somebody explain to me just how this works?
You know, if banning guns prevents gun violence, maybe we should ban drugs!
Edward L. Patrick
Our country has enough, if not too many gun control laws. While it is deplorable
that companies like Lorcin have security systems less adequate than most toy
companies, they are not responsible for the actions taken by individuals who have
legally obtained their products. This is America. If a company chooses to make a
shoddy product then they will be successful. Their bottom line is profit margin.
Security costs. For this I believe that the BATF has every right and obligation to
shut them down. The next company that is created to fill the void in the old supply
and demand curve might just do better. Certainly they could not be much worse.
Kudos to Frontline for bringing such a bad company to light. Too bad this is being
taken as a gun control issue. This should be a criminal justice issue. People who
traffic stolen goods and people who commit violent crime with any weapon should be
sent to a real jail. Many jails now are not any worse than where people normally
live. The criminals rarely spend an adequate amount of time sequestered from
society and in the rare case that a person is sentenced to death for killing
another it takes so long to finish the job that in the end the crime is forgotten.
As has been so eloquently stated, "guns are not good or bad, people are".
At the close of 'Ring of Fire', a statement
was made along the lines that 40,000 deaths
occur in the US every year due to firearms.
Where did this figure come from? Not from
the FBI uniform crime reports - I have those.
Not from the Bureau of Statistics reports - I
have those, too. Is this a recycling of the
figure for septic abortions used by the pro-
abortion lobby when referring to the year
prior to the Roe v. Wade decision? It didn't
work then, and it doesn't work now. Your
credibility is spiraling downward...
I Find it extremely troubling that in this day and age that so many people have a
time facing the truth with gun control measures .Why are people so afraid of the
words "responsibility" and "accountability" and find it easier to blame an object
instead of an individual who commits a crime with a weapon be it firearm ,knife or
a baseball bat. I am an Emergency Medical Technician in a city with a high crime
rate and many shooting related injuries. However more than not, a shooter will plea
bargain down to a lesser offense and be back on the street in less then six
months. With a justice system that coddles criminals, prisons with leisure
activities, medical care, and VCR's. And judges who have no backbone. I think I'll keep
my "assault rifle" close at hand.
My compliments on an excellent exposé. I was appalled by the apparent lack of
interest in security by the head of Lorcin. He must be guilty of breaking some law.
I wonder, how many lost lives can be traced to his irresponsibility?
It seems rather ironic to me that a manufacturer of a supposed "home security
device" would be so lackadaisical about his own plant's security.
I hope every congressperson in the nation viewed your program and saw the injustice
that is being perpetrated on the American public by their inability to tackle
important issues such as tighter controls on handgun manufacturers.
Instead of beating the White water non-issue into dust, they should be expending
their energy and our tax dollars cracking down on the rampant proliferation of
handguns into our midst. It is time for Congress to get its priorities straight!
Hot Guns was an informative investigation into one
aspect of firearms. Like cars, they can be stolen
and used for criminal purposes. We try to prevent
Your web site is disappointing, however. The Gun Stats
& Facts presented hint at a real bias against firearms
There are 124,286 federal firearms licensees in the US
and 391 ATF agents to regulate them. What's your point?
There are 260 million people in the US and only 250,000
law enforcement officers to regulate them. Perhaps a
better analogy: 260 million people with free speech and
no free speech regulators. If you don't think speech
can kill, think again.
Four federal safety standards apply to teddy bears and
none to firearms. What's your point? I sure hope teddy
bear manufacture has more federal safety standards. After
all, a few million two year olds don't put firearms in
their mouths every day.
When are you going to do a report on all of the lives saved
by firearms? Keep in mind that it literally is viewers
like me that support PBS.
Ken Johnson, P.E.
Mr. James Waldorf is a man of poor character. He seems to have a nice life dealing
in fear, violence, and death. by not protecting his inventory against theft from
outsiders and insiders he proves shows himself to be poor businessman. Refusing to
take responsibility for his products shows him to be of poor moral character. If
James Waldorf was the captain of a sinking ship I would expect him to be on the
first life boat. Waldorf's business practices help to give America a bad name, but
he loves the 2nd amendment.
Do "Freedom" and "The right to bear arms" go hand in hand or is it just an American
illusion? Is freedom being afraid of walking down the street unless you are armed
or is it having the right to protect yourself against all the millions of other
guns out there? Look around to other countries such as Canada or Great Britain do
they have freedom, yes. Do they own guns, no.
Excellent program! I am a strong advocate of the right to own arms for
protection. I therefore consider shotguns and long rifles as the proper
answer--and believe that was what the 2nd amendment meant. Pistols in
those days were inaccurate and unreliable. No thinking person used one for
home protection. Strong laws regarding manufacture, purchase and ownership of
hand guns are absolutely appropriate and do not infringe on anyone's civil
rights. Shooting enthusiasts will have no problem, only a lot of red tape to
Keep up the good work.
From reading the existing post on this subject is obvious that Frontline has been
the victim of a well organized letter writing campaign most likely orchestrated by
the NRA. It is obvious that most of the posters did not actually watch the
documentary, because their posts have nothing to do with the content of the
program. The idea that firearms manufacturers do not need to implement strict
security measures, because criminals have always been able to get guns and will
always be able to get guns is farcical at best. I think that we saw last night were
the criminals are getting the guns. Forcing firearms manufactures to actually take
some responsibility for security will in no way hamper the ability of law abiding
citizens to obtain firearms. It is appalling to think that someone would run a
company in such a haphazard manner. It is almost like they want the guns to be
stolen. Obviously the money saved from not having 14,000 weapons stolen would more
than pay for any security measures that would need to be implemented.
An interesting story which lacks focus on its own title. Why did you not focus your
attention on a shoddily run business making an equally shoddy product. Instead,
the program was a thinly disguised attack on gun ownership. The ATF requires
accurate record keeping on all phases of manufacture and distribution of firearms
moving in interstate commerce. They are notorious for malicious prosecution of
gun dealers who commit record keeping violations.
The timing of your program is highly suspect. There are several bills pending in
the California legislature to be acted upon this week, which seek to restrict
manufacture or commerce in these weapons. The outcome cannot be predicted. I
hope your airing of this program has no influence.
Gary R. Fague
Until recently, I thought of the PBS system
as being equal and unbiased, unlike some of
the other larger broadcasting companies. I
was so sadly wrong. I guess that you have
jumped on the band wagon in pointing fingers
at inanimate objects and say that they are
the cause of deaths. Here was a totally one
sided "report" on stolen firearms. The entire
story focused, not on the fact that they were
stolen merchandise, but on some notion that
they were evil guns. How many were used to
ward off attacks? I did not see this in any
portion of the broadcast. I'll admit that the
manufacturer was less than complete when it
came to records and security, but the entire
focus of the program was on these evil weapons.
The focus should have pointed out that these
were individuals willing to break any law to
satisfy their greed of money. They should be
prosecuted federally, since it is a felony to
knowingly sell or transfer a known stolen
firearm. If the individual that sold it,
transferred it to a known felon, that is an
additional charge. If all these people are so
law happy, why not enforce the ones on the
books?? Janet Reno should be out in the
forefront leading the prosecutions of these
criminals. What happened, where is she?? A
firearm is good nor bad, it has no feelings.
It is an inanimate object, much the same as
a automobile. It can be used to save lives or
take them, depending on who is behind the
Please don't count on my private
contributions toward PBS broadcasting until
I see an unbiased program on firearms.
To those who claim that guns are useless in self defense,
I would point out that my wife has used one to deter a
rapist...no shots were fired. Her ex-boyfriend used a
handgun to drive criminals away...nobody was hurt. HIS
ex-girlfriend shot one of a gang of four that were about
to gang-rape her, thus stopping the crime. And a friend of
mine drew his weapon to deter some criminals that were trying
to force him off the road. No shots were fired.
I find it interesting that the gun-control camp has yet to
explain how banning firearms will be any more successful at
keeping guns out of the hands of criminals than the current
draconian laws are at preventing the drug trade.
I also find it interesting that a poll of the Southern States
Police Benevolent Association showed a strong leaning AWAY
from gun control - to the point of 2/3 of the police officers
polled saying that further gun control was LEAST LIKELY to
reduce violent crime.
Lastly, comparisons to other countries are also strawman
arguments. For example, while it is true that England does
have strict gun control and low murders, they also have a
much lower KNIFE murder rate, a much lower BLUNT OBJECT murder
rate, and a much lower murder rate using HANDS AND FEET.
This points to a difference in society, not law. The truth
is that England's lower crime rates preceded their gun laws.
The majority of firearms in this country do no harm save to
drill holes in targets. Instead of concentrating phobically
on guns, let's focus on those who misuse them. Blaming the
gun for the actions of the murder is like blaming the car
and the alcohol for the accident.
David Hunt, PE
Nice quiz. Especially question 2. Comparing
the number of McDonald's restaurants against
the number of "gun dealers" is apples versus
Your figure of 124,000 "gun dealers" almost
certainly is a reference to the number of FFL
holders, and a little checking would have
told you that not every FFL holder runs
a gun store. Most FFL holders run any gun-
related business as a sideline for extra
A more apt question would have compared the
number of "gun dealers" against the number
of people who make hamburgers at home.
I did appreciate your honesty with question 7.
Although you surely intended it solely to
convey how nasty cheap little guns cause
crime and people don't, it is a poke in the
eye to all the knee-jerks who believed that
"assault weapons" are the root of all evil,
and terrified Congress accordingly.
Bates City, MO
"Hot Guns" wasn't an expose' on a poorly managed company that produces an inferior
product. We have several of those in the US. right now. What it was a
cleverly disguised anti-gun message to millions of people. Chip, chip, chip away,
and the rock of personal freedom will eventually fall. Frontline has taken another
whack by exposing the "evils of 'cheap' firearms". If Seagrams had let a few
thousand cases of scotch slip out the back door, and someone misused the product
and killed someone with a car, Frontline wouldn't have had much interest. At least
you are allowing the posting of reactions to the program, but the 'damage' has
already been done. Even though the judge declares "objection sustained", the jury
has heard your remarks.
GOOD SHOW, I HOPE THAT YOUR EXPOSURE WILL BRING
SOME LIGHT TO THE PROBLEM. AS A RESPONSIBLE
GUN OWNER THESE SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIALS SHOULD
BE BANNED FROM EVER HITTING THE STREETS. THEY
WERE NEVER DESIGNED FOR SELF DEFENSE AND RELIABILITY
JUST FOR PROFIT WITH UTTER DISREGARD FOR THE
CRIMES THAT THEY WILL COMMIT. THANK YOU.
Law abiding citizens who are legal gun owners
know that the criminality of gun use is the
area where legislation has failed the American
public. Inadvertently the hype to effectively
curb crime in this country has created a paranoia
surrounding people who legally own and use firearms
in sport and in the defense of their family.
Most gun owners would wholeheartedly agree that
a national tracking system is necessary to
ensure that guns don't end up in the wrong
hands, and if they do that the path of such
is determined and prosecuted. But the tracking
system should not contain owners who legally
have firearms but should contain those
individuals who should not be allowed to
purchase firearms instantly. Sportsmen and
gun owners are even willing to finance this
Because there is something inherently sinister
about a government which wishes to catalog all
gun owners. Policies such as these are what
were instrumental in disarming the populous of
Germany during the late 1930s.
Instead gun owners understand that the world's
history can and will repeat itself and know that
the right to keep and bear arms is not just a
supposed "outdated" Constitutional protection
used by the founding fathers to act as a standing
It is clear historically, that the right to
bear arms protects us from our government and
our neighbor, whichever would do us harm.
I found the "Hot Guns" Frontline show stimulating in that it exposed the "murder"
that CEOs or CFOs are getting away with when the interview segment showed close-up
shots of that ACTOR who hadn't heard of the staggering #s of guns that had gotten
away, followed by having heard of the "allegation" placed on his firm, Lorcin.
It's a shame that the officer isn't handed a greater reward for his valiant effort
to halt such crime. I felt that the angle taken by the journalist was brilliant by
exposing the trade show aspect along with the ads that are placed by this firm in
order to sell their version of "PROTECTION". I really wonder if he/they truly
believe that they are in fact doing society a favor by blessing us with their
"affordable" weapons accompanied by their "affordable" control of their stock. God
Having read the discussions to date I'm struck by a number of things which color the
debate surrounding firearms. First, the majority of the messages were what I would
consider Pro-gun. They were for the largest part, well articulated, sane
discussions of the issues surrounding crime and the misuse of firearms.
There were many cited references to scholarly research that supports the pro-gun
position, namely that firearms, labeled by the media and the political hacks as
"junk", "cheap" "assault" or otherwise, are more beneficial to society than
harmful. Second, not one of the letters succumbed to name calling or invoking
so-called right wing extremist views. Third, the few pro-gun control letters were
filled with primarily emotional hype of the dangers and deaths associated with
firearms. As if for emotional reasons alone, a constitutionally guaranteed right,
should be abandoned. It always strikes me as odd that those who envision
a gun-free world always suggest that only the law enforcement and military should
have firearms. Haven't they ever wondered how Hitler plundered Europe and achieved
a genocide? Don't they realize that one of the primary reasons for the Second
Amendment wasn't so much as a protection against bears as a protection against
the likes of King George? The overall gun-control agenda is driven by appeals to
emotion rather than any objective criteria. Senator Barbara Boxer's recently
introduced legislation to ban so-called "junk" guns (like the Lorcin guns in your
piece) is couched in a materialistic context of protecting citizens from
That banning these cheap, "useless", "non-sporting" firearms will prevent the
average person from being hurt. Yet the very same legislation allows the police to
still purchase those same weapons. Where's the logic? Reality or hype? Based on
sound research and constitutional law or on emotion?
Harvey Jay Fish, DC
Frontline did an excellent job in broadcasting
It awakened me to a problem I didn't know
existed. Hats off to agent McCreary (sp?).
We need more responsible journalism, such
as was demonstrated by Frontline.
J. K. Sullivan
NRA Life Member
Your show made a big point of the reputed unreliability of firearms from
Lorcin, Davis, et. al. This is hardly news in the firearms community.
Anyone knowledgeable of firearms knows these companies sell junk. My
point being, if you're going to face an armed criminal wouldn't you prefer
they be armed with unreliable junk (vs. the more powerful and reliable arms
they'll start stealing when the junk guns dry up)?
I noted in my response to your web site that it contained a great deal of
misinformation. When I find you making errors of fact in a subject in
which I'm an expert, why should I trust your treatment of subjects of
which I know little or nothing? You now have a serious credibility
problem and I have to decide whether to continue supporting you with my
Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP
We, literally, scream at one another about
whether guns should be legal and/or
controlled. It is not a rational discussion.
It is, however, a reflection of our societal
value of civility. In a truely civil society
guns could be owned or not owned because
they would not be used the way they are.
Rational debate could lead to their reasonable
control or even possible banishment.
If there are more than two sides to the debate,
they are drowned out by the extremes, each
screaming at the other side from their
emotional frame of reference.
While he seemed to be quietly rational, the
owner of Lorcin was screaming: "It was
somebody else's fault!" It seems we have
another bad habit: consequences are always
somebody else's responsibility.
I, too, have an emotional position and like
many other people it is fear. However, my
response to that fear is not to go out and
buy a gun. I must patiently live with my
fear and hope this national insanity passes.
However, this story gives me no solace,
optimism or even hope.
Thank you, Frontline.
William C. Wallace, Jr.
Comparing the practices of a reputable gun manufacturer such as Smith & Wesson to
rogues such as Lorcin is important.
As a gun owner, I understand the arguments on both sides of the issue of gun
ownership, and the cheap cost or short life expectancy of the Lorcin product is not
what appalls me, but rather the ridiculously lax security, the lame excuses and
rationalizations given show that these manufacturers have no scruples.
These manufacturers are responsible for the carnage wrought with their guns which
were never "made". For a few guns to disappear is one thing (this even happens to
the F.B.I.) but to flood the criminal underworld with disposable handguns is
unconscionable. Perhaps when some members of this manufacturing family is touched
by violent crime they may see the errors of their ways.
They are responsible for putting guns in the hands of criminals. They should be
treated as criminals, certainly more so than those who simply possess recreational
drugs and herbs.
B. D. Howard
This is a great example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Any
credible journalistic organization would have been all over the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for not investigating Lorcin the second
that they found the first untraceable firearm. Instead you show them
practically being hit over the head with these untraceable guns before
they act. What conclusively proves this point is that the medical doctor was
able to reach a conclusion that something was wrong without having the
huge resources of the US Government available to him.
The BATF is clearly guilty of endangering the public with its'
bureaucratic maneuvering in this case. So what do you do? Praise them
for their incompetence. Previously a network news show revealed that
they did not run background checks on firearm dealers applications.
When you consider the Brady bill gives 5 days to run a check and here in
Virginia it is instantaneously, this must be considered almost criminal.
Furthermore another recent news report stated that the BATF is afraid to
combat the crime problem in the inner city where all help is desperately
needed. Instead they prosecute most of their cases in rural areas where
crime is minimal. All this indicates is that the agency has abandoned
any pretense of being a law enforcement organization and is merely
posturing for funds.
If this is any indication of the competence of your staff then Speaker
Gingrich was right to call for a cut in funds to PBS. Normally I expect
to see quality on PBS whether I agree with it or not. This piece was
the work of simpleminded individuals being led around by nose. By
producing this appalling propaganda for the BATF you share equal
responsibility for deaths any injuries that result from their
Newport News, VA
The statement by the Lorcin official that limiting the ability of poor
people to purchase handguns for their "defense" (by banning the sale of cheap
guns) is a disenfranchisement more severe than slavery is immeasurably
obscene. His inference that the way to solve the problems of the inner city
is to pump in more inexpensive handguns, and that not doing so is worse than
the shameful legacy of slavery, should be an affront to every African
American. He defies common sense, ducks responsibility for his product's
lethality, and basely obfuscates his lust for profit by claiming a concern
for the poor.
America will never fully live up to its promise of being the number one country in
the world as long as we allow the continued production of cheap, poorly-made,
low-powered, inaccurate, and unreliable guns. If America is going to continue
leading the world we must pass immediate legislation to ban these weapons and make
sure that our criminals are armed only with the best, most reliable, accurate, and
high-powered firearms good old American know-how can produce.
On the subject of the security at Lorcin's factory, I agree, it is shameful. You
reported that they had 14,000 guns stolen from them at a retail price of $150 (as
reported elsewhere in your story). By my calculations Lorcin allowed $2.1 million
of their merchandise to walk out their front door. I can not imagine that any
company with such poor inventory control will stay in business for very long.
Responding to the excellent program on Lorcin guns.
Thank you for the paradigm shift that I experienced when I heard this
sentence on your program "there are more than 6,000 Lorcin guns
unaccounted for on the streets."
No thank you shift after the concluding sentence of the program:
there are more than 14,000 unaccounted for Lorcin guns."
Was I the only viewer that was dumbfounded to learn that there was a
gun unaccounted for by it's manufacturer? People, there should be
regulations, laws. Enforce them.
One is bemused by the repetitiousness
of the viewpoints expressed in the responses
to the Hot Guns program. "Guns don't kill
people" vs. "Outlaw all handguns". Liberals
vs. libertarians. How tiresome! We found
a way during prohibition: Tax the goods!
Put a revenue man on every gun factory
loading dock! It can be made a civil offense
not to pay the gun tax. Preponderance of
evidence, in place of reasonable doubt,
should put both the bootlegger and the
manufacturer in jail if they don't keep track
of what they make and sell and pay their
taxes. Why can't the government make some
money taxing the pesky things instead of
wasting millions buying them?
Generally I find programs on guns on PBS so biased toward the
anti-gun side that I after the show, I run for the antacid
medicine. Your program was a very well done unbiased piece of
reporting. Keep up the great work like this!
I am a very strong supported of the 2nd Amendment and
believe that law-abiding citizens have an unfettered right
to lawfully use firearms of whatever type and number as they
chose. The criminals have NO such rights.
The question of inexpensive guns is a hot topic.
They afford self-defense to those who cannot afford the
high-priced offerings from the major manufacturers.
The point of the Lorcin only firing a few shots before
jamming is interesting on 2 points.
One, in a defensive situation, a large number of shots are
rarely needed. And two, I have purchased guns from major
manufacturers for upwards of $600 and they didn't work
Lorcin's conduct is appalling and unforgivable. While they
have a right to make and sell their product through lawful means
of distribution, their gross negligence and indifference is
sickening. One wonders how with so much theft they can remain
in business, unless these backdoor sales were, as one might
not unreasonably infer, were corporate sanctioned. It that
is the case, then ATF should pull their license.
The ATF agent did a great job on the investigation. This
is more in line what ATF should be doing rather than enforcing
technical violations. Finally a good job ATF!
Am I the only person who was deeply offended by the suggestion that gun control laws
are "more discriminatory that slavery" made by Jim Waldorf, President of Lorcin
Engineering Co., Inc.?